Curious! Techies please reply.
 

I have a question about tuning field points and broadheads to hit the same point of impact. This is an experience I recently had and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on it. I was shooting a hoyt xtec and paper tuned it. I never could get a perfect bullet hole, just a slight high left tear no matter what I did to the rest or nocking point. The bow is still super accurate though. I have read on other forums of people advancing the top cam slightly and this cures the tear problem. Any thoughts on this, and why would you have to do this? OK, back to my original question. I shot a group of field points at 20 yards, then a group of broadheads at the same distance. The broadheads impacted low, and to the left. Using the easton tuning guide, I adjusted the rest to the right just a bit, shot another group and the horizontal groups where now the same. I then tried to get the vertical groups on by adjusting the rest up just a bit ( I have a loop but the adjustment on the nap 3000 micro is easier), and what was happening is that as the broadhead groups came up to the same poi as where the field points were, the field point groups started climbing as well. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this, and what would you do? As a side note, when you spend your time paper tuning a bow(I know that this is not the final step as group tuning is needed), and you then start moving things around to get field points and broadheads impacting the same, are you likely to still be shooting bullet holes and are you defeating the original purpose? If you need more info on my set-up, let me know, but it seems this question could apply to most bow set-ups.Sorry so long, but I won't be able to count sheep tonight until I get some answeres>:D. Good luck, and aim for the boiler room. Bhunter32.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Make sure your feild points weigh the same as your broadheads. Even then they probably will never fly the exact same. You should be able to get them close. Are you a hunter? Why mess with feild points until after hunting season?

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

I've owned eight bows over the last seven years, and with ALL of them my Muzzys flew 4" left and 2" lower than FPs at 40 yards. Moving the rest up and right didn't help, plus the groups got larger. This leads me to conclude that the "move the rest" theory doesn't always work, i.e., something happens AFTER the arrow leaves the bow (similar to knuckleballing?) that you can't control by tinkering with the bow itself. Now I just move the sight a little.

I've always used a strong right helical fletch. I'm going to borrow a left hand fletch clamp, build a few arrows, and test my theory by seeing if the BHs now fly to the right of the FPs. Anybody tried this?

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Yes I am a hunter. I have already taken a mid 150 class buck this season, and I was doing some tinkering with this bow. The field points and broadheads both weigh the same, 100 grain field tips and 100 grain 3 blade muzzys's. This is not my main hunting bow.Bhunter32.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

If you plan on hunting with the setup, tune to broadheads by group tuning out to a distance of 40-60 yds or whatever you feel comfortable with. Get them as tight as you can and what you feel confident in your shooting abilities, and go hunting!

When you wish to shoot 3D or lots of fieldpoints, take a few minutes then and dial them in and put your broadheads away until your are ready to use them again. The re-dial only takes a few minutes once you get it figured out.

I have found that fieldpoints and broadheads fly differently when both are tuned correctly to their individual perfection, due to varying flight characteristics of each due to length of ferrule, blade resitance to wind, etc. Tuning to get both to fly the same only brings things to a "Happy Medium" of both, NOT what is optimum for each individually. Many people continue to do this tho, and whatever floats your boat but I want my setup to be the best it can be for each given application... Much as you've found when shooting groups with certain broadheads the impact points will be different than fieldpoints when tuned correctly. Some do fly close to the same out of a machine, but I have yet to setup and shoot fieldpoints out of a machine to hit the same bullethole at distance time and again and then shoot a broadhead right behind it to hit the same hole without adjustment of anything, and vice-versa. If you find one that does, you are darned lucky, and if not and you have to move something to bring them together, you'll find that the groups at distance of each individual point selection open up a bit and thus are taking away from one or the other to reach the happy medium.

IMHO---Set up each to the tightest groups at distance you are capable of, and go out and enjoy. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Pinwheel 12, I was hoping you would chime in. I have grown to respect your opinion since I started on this forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what your saying is despite all the tuning and effort you can put into your set-up to perfrom the best with each application, when it comes to hunting, put the broadheads on and shoot them to get the best groups you can with good flight and go huntin'. I was watching a show last night on the outdoor channel and the host said that if your field tips and broadheads don't hit the same, then your bow is not tuned. It gets you to thinking, because like you, I want to be the best I can be with my equipment.. Sometimes's I think that thinking of all this technical stuff can sometimes take the fun out of shooting. By the way, do you have any knowledge of why you would have to advance the top cam timing on the xtec to get a bullet hole through paper. I am almost certain that I do not torgue the bow when shooting. I do not have this problem with either of my 2 mathews bows despite the grip differences. :D I hope I didn't just start another mathews vs. hoyt war.LOL. I talked to a hoyt sells rep and he said they do this at times, but the cam 1/2 will shoot accurate regardless. My set-up is a hoyt xtec, shooting 67 pounds, 29 inch draw with a loop, nap 3000 micro rest, carbon express 3d select 300's, fletched at 4 degrees right, with 3, 4 inch duravanes, cut to 30 inches. Maybe this will help. Thanks for the replies. BHunter32.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

First off, I am no bow expert, but I am an engineer and have been shooting archery/bow hunting for the last 15 years. I have experimented with many setups and I agree with the posts above, sight your bow in for broadheads. I have tested many different broadheads over the years and only a few grouped same as field points.

I was suprised that even some mechanicals did not group in exact same spot as field points. This bothered me because I guarantee some people buy mechanicals and don't even test them because the "are supposed to fly same as field points".

Also, a slight high-left tear is not a problem and I would not worry about trying to tune it out. When I shot target archery the owner of the local bow shop actually tuned a bow on purpose for slight high-left paper tears because for a right handed shooter it means the fletch end of the arrow is coming out slighty above the rest and away from the riser, both potential contact points. I myself usually attempt to get a bullet hole but if I am slightly high-left I don't worry about it and the bow shoots great.

Also, I have heard of advancing the top cam slightly but the purpose was not to improve paper tuning. The same target guy mentioned above (he was a sponsored staff shooter for indoor target archery) claimed that a slightly advanced cam enabled you to hold the bow steadier. My bow has been set up like that for years but I can't tell you for sure if it truly offers any improvement.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Blodg is correct on some of his points and has been doing some research I see, good post!. A left tear tail high 1/4"-3/8 actually is a preferred tear for most people who shoot right handed and release. This tear provides the fastest recovery from paradox on most setups for those stature/equipment shooters, and the quickest recovery from paradox provides the most consistent and accurate groups downrange usually. Most Pros I know tune to this setting. In fact many along with myself tune for groups at distance FIRST, and THEN run an arrow thru paper and nine times out of ten the tear comes up tail-high at 11:00 no more than 3/8 or so.

The Hoyt hybrid system is unlike other hybrid systems in that is has an eliptical cable track as opposed to a perfectly round one such as the Darton CPS, Martin Tru-Arc, Merlin Omega, and others that all offer straight and level nock travel at all drawlengths. In my estimation it is thus much more like a true twin cam when it comes to timing issues. JMHO.

I have also heard this "standard response" from many in the Archery world that if your arrows fly together no matter what they have on the front of them, your bow is well tuned. I say no way, and can and will argue that any time with distance groups of various heads on the same shaft. Fact is it boils down to whether you want to have the best tune for a given setup, or be "close enough". Sometimes I admit "close enough" isn't all that far off either from perfect IF you can find comparable heads, but this takes time too. I'm a stickler for details so I do whatever I need to to make sure my groups are as tight as they can be for a given application. I have different bows for different applications---my hunting bow(s), my 3D bow, my Field/FITA bow, and my indoor bow. All have differing setups that are tuned specifically for their intended application. I don't get to shoot most of them much anymore (except my hunting bow ) due to my running three Archery businesses, but when I do get a chance to play I know I have the equipment setup and tuned perfectly and capable of doing the job in each application, and the confidence in knowing that each one is helps immensely. Admittedly not everyone can have or even wants that many bows, but that is something each person must weigh for themselves and then go from there as to how exacting they want their setups to be for each application.

Here is a NH Doe shot on Sept 27---check out the shot placement, done in less than 60 yds---this is why I tune to each as I do.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

I use to be from the school of tuning my broad heads to my field points. And for years I could get them the hit the same hole most of the time with different bows. Untill a couple years ago while having this discussion with PW12. I went out to prove my case and tried both tuning methods. My bows where shooting great (I thought) untill I shot my broad heads out to 50-60 yds. The groups at that distance where all over the place. So I started again and tuned my broad heads seperately. Well now I can dial them in to where I can't shoot at the same spot out to 30-40 yards without damaging an arrow and my longer distances group consistently tight. So I'm a believer in tuning F/P and B/H seperately for the best effect. I still won't give up my bare shaft though. Jerry

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

I simply bare shaft tune my bow. If I can shot a bare shaft to 40 yards I can shot my, spin tested, broadheads to 40 yards. It's that simple. If the arrow comes out of the bow straight what does a broadhead matter?

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

ewolf--

If it were that simple, then one would be able to shoot most anything on the front of their shaftsand hit the same hole. However, as stated above, it is not as simple as it seems and bare shaft tuning is not the be-all, end-all of broadhead tuning by any stretch of the imagination. (been there, done that) An arrows' spine takes on a whole different personality once you introduce fletching of various length, weight, and helical, and also when you throw a broadhead on the front with more resistive surface, this also introduces physical and dynamic differences. Bare shafting is a great tool to get one close, but much like the scenario I depicted above with tuning broadheads and fieldpoints together, you cannot gain perfect tune when shooting one thing, then expecting another of differing weights and characteristics to be exactly the same. Physics simply does not allow that. Tho it MAY allow them to be close in certain instances, it will not allow them to be the ultimate for both at the same time. JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

My view on this has changed somewhat since I've been spine testing my arrows. I've found a combination of things that have gotten superior results with my broadhead flight. Spine testing and only shooting arrows within certain specs, and then aligning the cock fletch with the stiff side has helped broadhead flight significantly. I also shoot slightly stiff spined arrows and helical feathers. When cutting arrows to lenth, I cut from both ends, test the shafts for weight tolerance, and then do the spine testing.

I've used this to tune 4 dozen arrows now, which have been shot of of 3 single cam bows (from two different manufacturers), and one hybrid cam bow. Broadhead and field tip flight has been as close to identical as we can measure (don't have a hooter shooter). The broadhead groups are certainly not hitting an inch off from the field tip groups at 20 yards. This has led me to believe that if you tune using the steps I do, that broadhead planing due to equipment, can be close to eliminated.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Pin
You have to bare shaft with the weight of point/broadhead you plan to shot, and use the fletchings you plan on using on the fletched shafts. If you change the point weight, you are not in tune anymore. As for putting anything on the front of the shaft, if it spins is will fly fine. Any wobble and it will not fly right. This is all that I do, I have never lost a broadhead shoot. Never had a bow tuned (This way) that would not shot broadheads with the field points and bareshaft. Maybe I have just been lucky but I don't think that's the case.;)

If it comes out of my bow straight and the broadhead is on the shaft straight and the drag of the feathers is more then the drag of the broadhead, It will fly fine.

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

ewolf-

I understand your method and have done just that in testing, but I do not get the same results that you do, especially at distance. Same weight heads do not always fly alike, due to differing lengths of ferrule, drag on blades vs. none on fieldpoints, etc. Bare shafts and fletched shafts also do not fly into the same hole at distance, and if you try to get them both together then much like the broadhead/fieldpoint scenario as I stated previously you are taking away from one or the others' perfect tune to get that "happy medium" middleground. It thus becomes a matter of what is good enough for you as an individual. I have found that the groups of a highly tuned individual shaft/head selection will always be tighter at distance than that of a bare shaft/fletched arrow, or field point/broadhead duo trying to find that happy medium. JMHO.

If other means work for you and you are happy with the results, then no-one can say you are "wrong", anymore than anyone can say someone elses methods are, so whatever floats your boat. It boils down to logic, common sense, and confidence in the results of whatever method you use, so use what works, and good luck!;)

RE: Curious! Techies please reply.
 

Right on! The MOST important thing in achieving good broadhead flight is choosing the correct arrow to begin with.
I also have found that slightly over spined arrows work the best. I also prefer bare shaft tuning over paper tuning.