arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I hunt with some guys who have been bowhunting longer than I've been breathing. As a result, I'm hesitant to blow off there advice since I've only gotten back into bowhunting after a 25 year break. I'm shooting 27" goldtips with 100g broad heads at 278fps. These experienced hunters tell me I would be much better off with heavier arrows, or at least 125g heads. At what point does some extra weight make up for lossed arrow speed when it comes to penetration? Part of my excitement with new bow technology is how fast they shoot--25 years ago, I couldn't have imagined having the first pin on my sight set at 25 yds. This bow shoots flat enough that I think it makes sense. Is it worth giving up some of that speed? What kind of increased penetration can I really expect with 25g of additional weight? Does the analysis change if the game is elk rather than big mule deer? My sense is that some guys really do take the speed thing to extremes--my hunch is 278 fps with 380g arrow is not too far on the extreme. Any thoughts or suggestions? This last year I shot 100g slick tricks with good results. I'm contemplating a switch to the 85g slict trick which 5 shot reports penetrate like crazy. I'd appreciate some advice.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Normally you will get more KE from a heaver setup. I tend to go that route. Here is a link to the KE caculator on goldtips site. http://www.goldtip.com/calculators/kinetic.asp

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

HERE WE GO AGAIN.


If you are comparing apples to apples they are correct in the fact you will have more momentm and have better luck with a bone hit.But we aren't comparing apples to apples.You are comparing carbon to aluminum.In general carbon is tougher and will not flex as much on impact.On the otherhand,if you are using a thickwalled aluminum,you offset some of this so If you choose to take their advice,make sure you use atleast a wall thickness of .015 if you think there may be a problem with penetration.


From the looks of your setup,You won't have a problem with penetration.;)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I will not debate this one any more because whether you shoot heavy slow or light fast set up will still carry enough energy to pass thru a moose with proper shot placement.

My primary hunting rig shoots a 260 GN 9/32 dia arrowusing a 2" long with a 5/8" profile vane traveling 355 FPS 73 pounds energy off the string ,
at 60 yards is still carrying 59 foot pounds of KE and still traveling 319 feet per second and has only dropped 57 inches.

a bull elk can be killed with less than 50 pound bow resulting in a compleete pass thru producing 50 KE or less, what is more inportant above these specs isif you are comfortable using what you already have, shot placement.
and what the state you hunt in will allow you to hunt with.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I agree with your friends, elkaddict.

I disagree with TFOX, that this is an aluminum vs carbon debate. Might used to have been so, but now there are various heavyweight selections in carbon and carbon/glass composites. I've come to be pretty partial to Carbon Express Terminator Selects, a carbon composite arrow with almost exactly the same weight as an Easton XX75 2315, the same diameter as most ICS type carbons and, from my experience shooting them, better toughness than all-carbon arrows. All the benefits of carbon plus decent weight without absurd weighting systems. What's not to like? ;)

BPS posted on another thread that he couldn't get Phantom broadheads to fly straight. Look at the numbers he posted and you should easily see why. I believe I also remember him saying the broadheads he shoots are less than 1" diameter. Is that correct, BPS? Frankly, I'd rather have a big broadhead on a slower arrow, poking a 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" hole thru the heart/lungs than an identical hit with a faster arrow, but a hole less than 1".

I'll also gladly forsake some speed to take the easier tuning, better reliability and better 'forgiveness' of heavier arrows, and have a bow that consumes much less of my time with retuning and maintenance to boot. Less time spent tuning and working on my bow leaves me more time to enjoy SHOOTING the darn thing. ;)

Heck, even if a heavier arrow drops you down to 240 fps, your arrows are still screaming fast compared to whatever you were shooting 25 years ago!

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Hey Arthur,I just did a quick check for a 30" hard 2 cam bow at 70",s.The heaviest all carbon you could get with a 125 gr point was 488 grains.That would be considered light when compaired to a thick walled aluminum shaft for the same bow.There was only one anywhere neer that heavy,unless you count the composites.


Are you conceeding that carbon penetrates better than aluminum.;):D

Just kidding Arthur.


I am still in favor of good spine,good balance,carbon or carbon composite shafts ,properly tuned and well placed arrows over just weight at any cost.I am increasingly more in favor of the ACC's because of some of the issues that some seem to have with broadhead flight on carbons.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Only when you stuff the weight of an aluminum into the shaft diameter of a carbon.:) Of course, when you puff that light carbon up to the size of a 2512 aluminum... ;)

I've still not convinced that an arrow - of any material - flexes at all as it's passing through an animal's chest cavity; unless the animal moves at the beginning of penetration or unless the arrow hits heavy bone. IMO, this is the carbon manufacturers taking a grain of truth (ie: how carbons vs aluminum arrows act when they come to a dead stop in a target butt) and blowing it all out of proportion to create a myth. Then they started spreading it in order to boost sales.

Dr Ashby's studies - which are the only true penetration tests done on a scientific basis with actual game animals in the field - affirm the effects of shaft diameter, heavier total arrow weight and broadhead design and lend no credence to any hypothetical shaft flexure.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Maybe I didn't ask the question well. Is adding 25g of weight with the corresponding loss of 8-10fps really going to penetrate more? At some point, the loss of velocity has to affect penetration too. I can clearly see how shooting arrows that are a 100g heavier would have more momentum/penetrate better. But without going to this extreme, is there a significant advantage by jumping 25g in weight? I prefer 4 blade broadheads for the additional cutting area--I also understand that it takes more energy for them to penetrate than say a similar cutting width 2 blade. I'm jsut trying to figure out a good balance of penetration and speed with optimum cutting area.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Well, that makes it a simple answer. No.

Unless the extra 25 grains makes your arrows spine out better, fly cleaner and more accurately, and hit straighter....[:-]

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

P
I tested the phantoms on a 75-95 using 4" RH feathers the arrows speed was 272 FPS
my Broadheads are 1" cut diathat have already killed 3 this year
large cut diamiter heads wont do you worth a flipif you cant keep them from planeing out of the kill zone.

arthur if you like your set up fine
but I would apreciate it if you would quit making enuendos that mine is inferior to yours when it have prooven its self time after time.
Thanks in advance;)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I'm going to disagree with many here. I think the heavier heads penetrate better from my experience.

Here's what I used to set my bow up.

1. I never take shots past 30 yards due to the terrain I hunt. I just don't get many shots that long. Too many bushes and obsticles.
2. Speed isn't worth anything if you aren't accurate.
3. The speed I lose by shooting the 125gr heads isn't enough to make my setup need more than the 2 pins I use for hunting. I have one out to 20, and one set at 30. The difference on a target is only around 10 inches with my broadheads so two pins is fine for me.

With that in mind, I think the 125s were the way to go for me. I'm not a speed deamon. But I have the accuracy I want out to the range I want to hunt.

If you're planning on taking longer shots, or you have too much drop in your arrows, by all means get a lighter head. But if you can swing heavier with little impact on your hunting setup, I'm all for it.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

You are only looking at about a 5% increase in kinetic energy when going from a 5 grains per lb. of draw wt.(70 lb draw = 350 gr arrow) to 8 grains per lb. of draw wt.(70 lb draw = 560 gr arrow). I would call that irrelevant whether the difference is 84 lb. KE vs. 80 lb. KE or 42 lb. KE vs. 40 lb. KE. Get your arrows tuned, use a stiff enough shaft, and use very sharp broadheads. Those three things will do far more for penetration than any increase in arrow weight. Smaller diameter broadheads should be easier to tune and create less resisitance on impact. Bottom line: Don't change heads if you current set up is working, I don't care how long your buddies have been hunting.

My rig makes 85 lb. of KE behind a 375 gr arrow w/ a Muzzy 90 gr head. Typically, the end result is pulling a blood covered arrow from about 12" into the ground and going less that 100 yds to retrieve my animal. That heavy arrow crap is just that. If you feel you are a little light on penetration simply add 5 lb of draw weight.

On the speed side of things, you don't have to hunt out West to use it to your advantage. I use high speed to keep things simple. 320 fps allows me to use one pin from 0-35 yds and that just happens to be my comfortable range too. I don't care where that big bucks shows up, 15, 25, 35 yds just put the pin on him and pull the trigger.

Sorry for the rant but the heavy arrow argument just isn't good physics.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Tbonecpa

((((((AMEN!))))))

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Exactly!


If you use a heavier arrow your KE will go up a touch, but not much. Most would say not enough to make a difference. That is why I like the Carbon. My arrows are fly faster and yield almost as much KE and a heavier "Aluminum." I like the flat trajectory. To me sacrificing a pound of KE is worth the gain in speed. That is just my opinion.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Speed is convenient;)

True I did the same thing and so did my buddy. He could get away with a 40 and under pin. That is handy in many situations. He hunts all over so speed gives him a lot of versitlity on the yardages he can shoot. Whether he is out west, or up north, or where ever; he made his setup to do just about anything. I believe he has about 98 - 100 lbs of KE.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I think penetration and KE is a non-issue with your setup, unless your hunting really big-game. More important is your broadhead flight and what happens in wind or when hitting a twig. In my opinion the extra 25 grains is very helpful to increase your F.O.C. for a better flying hunting arrow. I find that 125-140 grain heads on a good stiff carbon arrow, result in some pretty darn good broadhead flight. Lighten up on the tip weight and things get more critical for spine or shooting in wind.

At the ranges most of us shoot while hunting, speed is probably the least important component of success.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Couldn't agree more, SA!

BPS, no more inuendos? Okay. Yes, my setups - even my POS homemade longbow - are far superior to yours, in every respect. Except on the chronograph screen.

By the way, You're welcome.;)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I will have to agree with Arthur 100% (fOR THE FIRST TIME)that the extra 25 grains won't make a difference unless it affects the spine and foc in a possitive way.;)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Arthur P
I love ya and im praying for ya.;)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Very true:)

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Holy **** what kind of bow are you shooting? My BowTech Samson is the fastest bow i could possibly find other than ones 90lb draw and higher. With an 80lb draw and with light arrows i was getting a max of about 320 fps. With my heavy arrows I'm using for hunting I'm getting 308 fps.

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

I bet even your light arrows were not 260 grns. That is extremely light for arrow weight unless you are shooting a lower poundage.

I have never really agreed with the 5 grns per pound rule myself. There are other factors to add in like draw length and weight on the string. Since I have a 26 inch draw and use puff balls and a peep site I think I could safely go lighter than that. My reasoning being my set up does not devolope as much evergy as a bow with 70 lbs of draw at 30 inches and a bare string. 5 grn per lb is pretty generic in my opinion. There is a minimum AMO weight chart on Bowjacksons web site that gives a better idea of what you could use with what set ups.

I have always figured that if your bow is designed to shoot a specific IBO speed, it should be able to handle the amount of energy it takes to get it there. Which means I believe I could safely go down on arrow weight until my arrows aproach the speed my bow is rated for (320 for my mighty might) and the bow should be able to handle it. However when you are talking about bows that draw higher like your samson, you should go the other way, unless the IBO spec listed was achieved with 80 lbs of draw.

I wouldn't suggest dropping arrow weight until you go higher than your rated speed. However most bows are built to handle more than what they say and Bigpapa knows this so he is willing to take that risk. It is his bow and he can do what he wants with it. As long he takes care of the bow and looks it over often I bet it will be fine especially if he is using some limb saver products and good string silencers. I personally have never shot arrows under 300 grns even at 50 lbs and 26 inches of draw. While I doubt a bow will explode using light arrows, it sure isn't good for them in the long term. Not too good on the strings either, you should replace them more often with lighter arrows. And most that use really light arrows don't keep thier bows very long either. They are constantly upgrading equipment and the such so they are not overly concerened with the long term effects on the bow.

I'm not slamming on you or any thing, but may I ask why you wanted a bow that can draw from 80 to 100 lbs? The IBO speed is only 10 fps faster than my mighty might? You could have got a Black Knight that would be faster but with less draw weight. Like I said, I'm not trying to start anything, I have just always wondered about that when I looked at the line up.

These are just my opinions and not stating anything as fact or saying anyone is wrong. It is just my take on the subject.

Paul

RE: arrow weight v. speed for penetration
 

Good post Paul

I think once you go over 75 pounds of draw weight on a bow it is just too much of an overload on the limbs Cam/'s, idler wheel, bushings, axles and the riser.
No matter how well built a bow may be there is such a thing as over kill and will really not produce no more speed or KE than a bow pulling less weight.

Jhalfhill
to answer youre question
I am shooting a Newberry B1 at 29" draw pulling 72 pounds shooting 260 grain Speed pro Max arrows and Speed Pro broad heads,
this is my primary hunting setup

now for ASA and IBO 3D tournaments I use a totally different setup due to the fact my hunting arrows are illegal due to the weight and the speed they produce

for 3d I shoot any where from 55 to 60 pounds and use the lightest arrow I can legally get away with in order to achieve the highest speed I can get from the bow to attain the flattest possible trakectory at variable yardages.

I can get away with using the Speed Pro arrows provided I stay within the 5 grain per pound rule.

however if it is a fun shoot whichis kinda shoot what you bring I will take the newberry and shoot the light arrows out of it.
I love to see the reaction of the fellas when I shoot that thing I always get the same reaction WOW HOW FAST IS THAT BOW SHOOTING!:D

OH BTW The Archery Pro LLC Newberry bows have an unconditonal lifetime warranty to the original owner this warranty includes shooting 3 grain per pound arrows;)