BGfisher

A rest doesn't have to be set up just right to get arrows to group. In fact, the bow doesn't have to be tuned at all and it'll still group field points well. So long as the person shooting the bow is doing the same thing for every shot. The problem sounds to me like a shooting form issue. And that could very well be that the bow doesn't fit you well. This can make you shoot differently each time you draw the bow.

I see one guy mentioned locking the thumb behind your neck. This in itself can create torque. From experience I can also say that if you can get your thumb behind your neck then the drawlength of the bow is too long. Been there and done that---years ago.

Here's one I use for tuning a bow. I set my rest up on centershot suing a laser. I never move it. If my bow is shooting to one side or the other I adjust the weight of the bow. Who says that we must shoot a particular weight? Can you honestly tell the difference between 70 lbs and 67 lbs? If the bow shoots well at a certain weight then that's what I shoot. If it's too far off then I change to a different spined arrow.

Paul L Mohr

I’m sorry this took so long to answer, but I’ve been hunting this week. Rather than just tell you what I think on the subject since you don’t believe anything I say any way, I will quote other people and take things directly out of books and internet sites dedicated to tuning and bow shooting.

I will say however that in my last post I was talking about target shooting and mostly at fixed distances, not different yardages. However I have never really experienced the problem with different impact points as I move back in yardage. At least not any that I couldn’t fix by touching up my sight adjustment. I like to set my windage from the furthest distance I can shoot well. After doing this I am normally right on when I move up to 20 yards. No rest adjustments required to get my windage correct. From what I have seen this problem is usually caused by form problems like canting the bow or grip problems. You are really just adjusting the rest to fit your shooting style.

I am in no way saying that tuning is not important and you shouldn’t bother with it. Getting your arrow to leave the bow in the straightest line never hurts, and is a great advantage using fixed blade heads. But like I said, shooting field points with adequate fletching at normal distances just isn’t that complicated. All the tuning in the world isn’t going to fix 6 to 8 inch groups at 20 yards. And leading someone to believe otherwise is just filling their head with miss information. This poor guy will be dinking with his bow until he gives up. When in reality he probably just needs to learn to shoot better and get his bow to fit him properly. Then he can worry about tuning it to be more forgiving and accurate.

Here are some quotes about tuning and its place in archery. In some cases these quotes are condensed versions of the actual text in order to make my obscenely long post a bit shorter. I have tried to keep the original context of the message as close to the point as it can be. I know I hate it when I am quoted out of context.

From the book Idiot Proof archery from Bernie Pellerite:

“Most archers think bow tuning is the most important part of accuracy. Nothing could be farther from the truth! In theory bow tuning plays absolutely no role in accuracy. This is easily proven if you have access to a good shooting machine. A shooting machine is capable of putting every arrow in the same hole.”

“I know some of you must be thinking I am anti tuning. Not at all! I believe that bow tuning is an essential part of good archery. We are human beings not machines, and only humans need to tune a bow. Tuning simply tries to counteract the influence that a flaw in our execution has on the arrow’s impact. The only reason for bow tuning is to improve our bad shots; our good shots all go where we aim any way. And, as for our really bad shots… tuning won’t help much at all.”

“The key here is to understand that in theory, tuning is not related to accuracy. Tuning is related only to bow performance and forgiveness… accuracy is related to consistent execution of form. Therefore, the more consistent we are in our form, the more accurate we will be.”



These are some quotes from Bob Ragsdale’s questions and answers page:

“Don't be obsessed with "tuning" because that is NOT where accuracy comes from. If you can shoot "perfect" paper test holes at 8 and 25 feet then you are already WAY ahead of the average archer who is probably more accurate than you, but has never run a test of any kind and is nowhere near as good on spine as you.”

“A bow has to have an extremely incorrect arrow spine and/or be dramatically miss-aligned within the bow to 'not group' relatively well. So we'll take the attitude here that you are NOT doing one or all of these 3 things; A. Not allowing the bow to recover identically each time; B. Not pointing the bow in the right direction each time; C. Not using identical ammunition each time.

A. A bow only does one thing for a living; it goes back to the rest position from full draw. It has no brain, can make no decisions and is not “out to get you”. This means that IF it is put in the same situation each time at full draw it has NO CHOICE except to return to the normal rest position in an identical fashion each time (i.e. if you hold the handle or the string differently or release the string differently in any fashion it cannot be expected to make an identical return trip or for the sight references or arrow alignment within the bow to remain correct).

B. At the instant the arrow nock leaves the string the shot is OVER; in the sense that the arrow is now completely on it's own and you either POINTED IT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION (windage & elevation) OR YOU DID NOT. So you will either HIT or you will MISS because if it (i.e. if your windage and distance sight settings were not exact, or, if you torqued the grip, or, released the string at a different rate or angles, or, did not have the sight held perfectly steady on the exact target, or, if the rear sight was not properly aligned (did not take a correct sight picture) with the front sight. Aggravated even further if there was a different-manner hold or release of the string and/or a handle torque effect to cause the bow to rotate differently during recovery to an unknown sighting point wen the arrow is still on the string.

C. No 'good shot' rifleman would ever expect to shoot tight groups with several different bullet types and bullet weights by mixed manufacturers. Archers tend to think arrows are magic and always shoot perfectly, (maybe it's a fletching thing) but that's far from the truth. If one does not NUMBER THE ARROWS and 'call' the shots where they should have hit and record them and then make other notes while setting up they will waste a lot of time and effort assuming each arrow shoots identically. Point is that you shouldn't panic and make an assumption and then change based on one shot, but 'everyone' does it.”

There are many more statements like this on his site, but I figured that was the one that summed it up the best.


This is what Matt Cleland has to say about tuning in his paper he wrote about shooting the compound bow for FITA. Most know of Bernie and the Ragsdales, Matt is a local archer (Swanton Ohio) that runs an archery shop in his family’s gun store. He holds several world, national and regional archery records in indoor and out door target events. (outdoor long distance shooting up to 90 meters) With recurve and compound with both fingers and release aids. He was also on the U.S. archery team from 1998 to 2001. He gives private lessons and teaches at a local college. He is also an avid hunter.

In his 180 paragraph, 13 page paper he dedicates one paragraph to tuning. The rest is about equipment, form, aiming and the mental game. This is the paragraph about tuning:

“Equipment summary-Tune the bow for the best flight that is possible without putting too much time into it. This tuning should take less than one hour. Once decent arrow flight is achieved take the bow out to 90 or 70 meters and shoot for groups. If the bow shoots vertical groups move the nockset up and down in small amounts until nice round groups are achieved. If the bow shoots horizontal groups move the arrow rest left and right until nice round groups are achieved. Use this procedure to tune the bow then forget about it. Once this is done, focus on the mental game and practice routine. If an archer spends a lot of time worrying about the equipment and tinkering with it, his or her scores will not be what they are capable of. Worrying about equipment will not allow an archer to shoot confident shots. Remember: the one who shoots the most practice arrows usually wins.”

Ok, now about the professional archers that have won things or set records with out of tune bows. These incidents are also from the Idiot Proof Archery book mentioned above.
Bernie talks about several tuning myths and what it can and can't do for you. He states a few instances of people shooting very well with out of tune bows and bows that are not forgiving or set up properly.

One of them being Tom Crowe who is a professional target and 3-d archer. He set the vegas record for the only perfect 300 ever shot in the Bowhunter Freestyle division. And he did it with a high let off hunting bow with 5 inches of overdraw, a fletchhunter wrist style release, over spined short arrows and what everyone thought was too long of a draw and bad form. Plus his arrows were fishtailing 6 to 8 inches on the way to the target. Yet all of his arrows landed in a hole the size of nickel.

Another was Terry ragsdale in 1978. A quote from Bernie “Terry and his wife Michelle, are arguably the best target archers to ever shot a compound bow.” And the above mentioned Bob ragsdale is Terry’s father and I would assume his coach, not mention a pretty decent archer himself. He also spent many years working for PSE designing and testing bows.

Terry shot the only perfect 1200 ever recorded in Vegas and it has never been duplicated since (except by himself). By the end of the tournament he discovered that the bow string had five broken strands directly under the nock. When Terry got home he had heard rumors of a “new” Process called paper tuning (1978 remember). He shot the same arrows used in the tournament through the paper. He flunked the new test with a high left 5 inch rip in the paper. This probably would have prevented him leaving the house if he had done it before the tournament. He duplicated that feat at Cobo Hall in Detroit a month later. He did all this with a PSE Citation that had such cam lean it looked like the string would jump off the track. He also adds that most all of the indoor Vegas target records (perfect 900) were set with old style non center shot riser bows. Including the two 1200s shot by Terry ragsdale.

He also talks about a woman that won a state championship with her two wheel bow so far off it had two separate valleys. One at 28 inches and another at 31 inches! Since she couldn’t draw it that far she never knew about it. Yet she won a state championship with it? I guess she must have had good enough form to draw it to the same spot every time.


I don’t consider myself to be that great of an archer, but I feel I am better than the average hunter. Only because I practice more. I don’t compete nor do I have any desire to. I tried it once a few years ago and didn’t care for it. I don’t even keep score when I golf. I just do it because I enjoy it (I suck at golf by the way but it’s still fun with the right people). I don’t have any trouble holding a one or two inch group at 20 and 30 yards consistently, regardless of how my bow is tuned or the type of arrows I use. How ever I have seen really good archers shoot much better than I can using a long bow with no center shot, or rest for that matter. Not to mention using fingers and no sights. It’s because they are GOOD, period! Not because their bow is tuned better than mine, there is nothing to tune except spine and nocking point.

So this is where I come to the conclusions and opinions I have on tuning. I do believe tuning and micro tuning have their places. I just feel that most archers don’t shoot well enough to achieve it or benefit from it. It’s mostly in their heads. Having a well tuned bow and perfectly spined arrows can mean the difference between shooting X’s and breaking the line. It will not however make an archer that shoots 8 inch groups suddenly start breaking nocks arrow after arrow. Neither will switching to a drop a way rest or other fancy equipment.

The number one most important thing is that your bow fits you and is comfortable to shoot. Then concentrate on form and proper shooting technique. After that is mastered you can worry about tuning and tweaking things to eek out more accuracy. I have taken guys that couldn’t shoot 8 inch groups at 20 yards and had them shooting 3 inch groups at 30 without even changing their set up. Mostly they had poor or no anchor points and very bad grip. Then when I proved they could shoot better than they were I could get them to let me change their set up. Most were shooting too long of a draw length, improperly set peep sights, the wrong arrows and poorly tuned bows. They didn’t always shoot better than 3 inches right away, but they all agreed the bow “felt” better at full draw, in turn making them more confident.

Paul

TFOX

Good post Paul and I am,for the most part in agreement,especially when Bernie says we are not machines.


Most of what you post is true for very good tournament shooters but when hunting with low energy setups like yours, and mine to some degree,we need a very well tuned bow to ensure full benefit of penetration.



It is very true that tuning is for forgiveness and imo centershot is the most important factor for a forgiving setup and then having an arrow that is stiff enough to handle the energy.Of course this is only true if the bow fits the shooter perfectly.


Even a bow that has extreme fletching contact can be shot very accurately,provided all the arrows have the exact same contact with the rest.If they are all impacting the rest differently,the shots will be all over the place.


Like you say,most can't tell the difference but one thing I have noticed about arrows and spine,the closer I am to the "perfect" spine,the better my scores are outdoors.It's that forgiveness thing again.[:-]

Paul L Mohr

I totaly agree with you on that point. For fixed blade heads I feel you need to be much more critical on your set up. Whether you have a lot of KE or not.

My original point was that tuning is not going to fix this guys problem. He was talking about practicing at moderate ranges and not grouping well. No amount of tuning is going to fix this kind of grouping problem. Everything I stated was aimed at target type stuff and meant for field tipped arrows with good fletching. Not shooting a fixed blade broad head.

In order to tune a bow you have to be able to first shoot it well enough to tune it. Other wise you are just wasting time and effort and will never get conclusive results. You can't expect to tune a bow better than you are actually capable of shooting.

Now if he would have said "I shoot fine with field tips, but my broad heads just won't group well for me, what is wrong?" Then maybe I would have mentioned tuning and trying to get a better spine match. Along with checking to make sure your heads spin straight when mounted. And also looking at form, since broad heads can magnify problems that you wouldn't normally see with field tipped arrows.

I just feel that people worry way to much about having the perfect tune or what sort of expensive gizmo or high tech drop a way rest they should be using. When the truth is none if it will really make them shoot better. They might for a while because they feel more confident that what they did actually made a difference. Eventually the same problems will begin to occur again though and they will look for some other excuse or quick fix or new gadget that will ensure they will shoot better. I did the same thing when I first started. That's how I know it doesn't work, I tried most of it already.

You know how I started to get better. I quit worrying about it concentrated on shooting. And when things were not going right I stopped blaming things other than myself. If yesterday my bow shot perfectly, and today I can't hit anything I don't think my rest is wrong. Why did it work yesterday when every thing was the same. Hmmm, must be me huh!

Paul

TFOX

Paul,I swear your post are getting longer than Jeff B's.[:-]Just kidding and you are absolutely correct.


Especially about buying new gizmos and all of a sudden the person is shooting better than ever but as soon as the new wears off,there not shooting the same.Time to get new arrows.Cofidence is everything.



As for the original question,the bow must be setup to fit the person and an eyeball tune should be sufficient to learn to shoot.And then after he becomes proficient with the equipment,let the games begin.

WornVanes

Hi, nice board.
I agree with you all that form and fit play a big role in how a certain bow shoots.
I`m shooting a Jennings at 60 lbs, WB rest and field points for target practice.
I generally can shoot five or under groups consistent at 20 yards and paper plate at 40 and 60 yards.
I also am a tinker and can`t leave well enough along so i have re-tuned my bow half a dozen times.
The end result being all settings end up back in the exact same place evey time. I use the bare shaft method and grouping for tuning.
Something weird and may prove the point about form and bow fit is a friend of mine was over yesterday and shot my bow.
I was shooting fletched arrows in tight groups and putting the un-fletched arrow right in with the fletched.
When he shot my bow the fletched arrows went right six inches and the un arrow went left six and high eight.
I am tall and the bow is set at 29 draw length and he is a short person so i can only contribute that much difference in the poor way my bow fit him.
Great and helpful thread.
Thanks

Paul L Mohr

It's pretty hard to shoot someone elses bow and have it be on as far as the sights go. The demensions you use to set the pins and peep are different for every person. The Key is how well he grouped the bow, not where the group impacts.

He may have been torqueing the bow, and that is why he shot off from yours. But he also could have been lining up the sight differently as well. And the up and down was probably do to peep height and a difference in anchor point.

I have a freind that has a simular set up bow as mine as far as draw length and the such. If we switch bows the arrows impact in different spots, but still group well. His bow is about an inch too long for me though and has more draw weight. And the peep doesn't come close to lining up with my eye because we anchor differently and the demensions of your faces are different.

Paul

WornVanes

Agree and sorry about not saying that he did group the fletched arrows well but 6 in. right.
The part i can`t figure out is the unfletched arrow, why would that go so extrem left and high when i was putting it in the same group as the fletched.
Thanks.

Paul L Mohr

When you tune a bow, you are tuning it to you. You are making up for errors in your form or release. He obviously shoots different than you do. Having the draw a bit long doesn't help, it induces torque in most cases.

Also grip pressure plays a big part in tuning and where your arrow impacts. In order to bare shaft and paper tune with decent results you need to have a pretty consistant grip. Everyone torques a bow, just to different degrees. Where you place your hand and how relaxed it is has a big effect on this. Next time you bare shaft tune try changing your grip or holding the bow tighter, you will notice you impact points shift.

Chances are he just grips the bow differently than you do is all, so the bare shaft went in a different direction. Fletchings do a lot for an arrow as far as forgiveness goes.

Paul

WornVanes

Agree again and just goes to show how much form makes in shooting.
Tune your bow and shoot, if your off one day wait a day and shoot again and you will most likey be on again.
Thanks.