Go Back  HuntingNet.com Forums > Archery Forums > Technical
 feathers in the rain >

feathers in the rain

Community
Technical Find or ask for all the information on setting up, tuning, and shooting your bow. If it's the technical side of archery, you'll find it here.

feathers in the rain

Thread Tools
 
Old 10-16-2004, 06:17 PM
  #21  
Fork Horn
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Thunder Bay ONT CANADA
Posts: 132
Default RE: feathers in the rain

I think the reason vanes are so popular is because the vast majority of bowhunters only hunt deer, which means fairly close range shooting. We haunt alot of moose where I live so 35-40 yd shots are often necessary and quite feasible since moose can't jump the string. At these distances feathers are far superior. If you shoot close, use vanes, if you want range in all sorts of weather conditions, use feathers.
For waterproofing I used flytying "gunk", used to treat dry flies. It is painted on the feathers and works great. Now I use a cat quiver by rancho safari (available at Cabelas) which keeps the feathers covered until you are ready to shoot. Always have dry feathers even in driving rain and snow, which is the best time to hunt moose.
borealboy is offline  
Old 10-16-2004, 09:57 PM
  #22  
Nontypical Buck
 
Bigpapascout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In Teh Garage (Rossville, GA USA)
Posts: 1,161
Default RE: feathers in the rain

ORIGINAL: Arthur P

Well, since you partially apologized then, for my part, I partially accept. You just need some more study but, please, do so with an open mind. You'll find your 'cold hard facts' aren't quite so cold or hard. Kinda warm and mushy, really.
Arthur P
do you shoot mainly traditonal or compound?

Feathers do have their place especially with Recurves and long bows, they provide forgivness aginst the riser face and can even be shot off the shelf for some degree of accuracy and do stabelize very well up to about 25 to 30 yards (even Less with Traditonal equipment) past that they slow down too fast and so does the RPM's of the arrow which do not stabelize as good.

IMO high Preformance Bows needs to use High Preformance arrows.
I guess a good example would be like putting a stock street cam in a race engine [:-]
vanes are able to maintain their speed because there is less friction and wind resistance which in turn is able to maintain a higher RPM to stabelize the arrow.

I am 100% sure everything here I have stated is Fact Not fictionI guess everything revolves around personal preference, I preferr vanes
for the reasons I have stated above.

I can sit here and blow wind all day long but proof is in the pudding![8D]


Some of the members of this board measure that in decades , Auther
I have been into archery since I was five, I am now 43

so I think maybe I may know just a thing ot two about the subject
Bigpapascout is offline  
Old 10-17-2004, 08:08 AM
  #23  
Giant Nontypical
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
Default RE: feathers in the rain

I can sit here and blow wind all day long...
Yeah, you've proved that![8D]

To answer your question, I'm a switch hitter. I shoot compounds and stickbows, interchangeably. I shoot, or have shot, compounds with a release and sights (pins and scopes), fingers and sights, fingers and barebow, release and barebow. I've won tournaments (field archery and 3D) in 7 different styles, once winning in all 7 styles in the same season. I was pretty proud of accomplishing that. I've shot every kind of arrow material with every kind of fletching that's been available during my lifetime (vinyl sucks!). I've been shooting since I was 3 and am now 52.

By the time you started, in 1966 if my math is correct, I was 14 and spending my summers staying on grampa's farm. Plenty of time to hunt after my chores were done, so I had already shot a pile of quail, rabbits and squirrels, more than a few skunks, possums, raccoons, a fox, several coyotes and missed at least one bobcat. There weren't many deer around where I grew up in those days, so I grew up on varmints and small game. Small game is still my favorite hunting. How many mourning dove have you busted -in flight- with an arrow? I've got 6. It's taken me nearly 20 years to get 'em, but I got 'em.

It wasn't until the early 80's that I found out there were archery clubs in the area I'd migrated to, and got into tournament shooting.

I also found out how few people there are who appreciate their local clubs enough to devote any of their time and effort to supporting them. I'm one of the few who will. So, I've served as an officer in one or another local clubs for 18 of the past 20 years. I've been tournament director for around 100 tournaments, not counting weekly fun shoots. I've also done primitive archery seminars for the local Boy Scouts and have organized special youth days at our club, where we open the gates to all kids and teach them how to shoot.

I've also been active in writing letters and e-mails and attending public input meetings to our state's game commission, trying to defend our pitiful little one-month-long bow season. It's under attack from all sides - gun hunters and big money hunting operations, as well as anti-hunters.

Now, if forced to choose only one setup to shoot to the end of my days, it'd be a recurve, aluminum arrows and feather fletching. Lightweight, maneuverable, nothing likely to break except the string (which I can change and have perfectly adjusted in less than 2 minutes, and keep hunting or shooting). So, I guess I'd have to admit to being primarily a recurve shooter.

But I do not like limiting myself to only one type of bow. My archery interests are too varied to keep them all stuffed into one box. I've been making my own selfbows ever since I was a kid. Lately, I've made my own glass laminated longbow and am looking forward to making a form for a 50's style recurve. Ever brought home game with a bow and arrows you made yourself, from scratch? It's way cool.

So, I think I've learned a thing or two over the years, myself. I pretty much know the advantages and disadvantages of vanes/feathers. The key though, is that I've learned how to choose and tweak different fletching sizes, types and styles to perform the tasks I need them to.

Overall though, for all round shooting/hunting, I think the advantages I get with feathers outweigh the disadvantages. The 'forgiveness factor' cannot be ignored, and that is especially true with high performance compounds, IMO. With most IBO 3D targets set within 50 yards and most hunting shots being 30 yards and less, vanes offer NO advantages, at all, other than being waterproof. So, I can live with having to keep plastic in my pocket and using treatments to keep my feathers dry.

You like vanes? Fine. You shoot 'em. No sweat off my brow. Can't figure out why you've got such a burr under your saddle about people shooting feathers though... You own stock in a vane manufacturer or something?

By the way, I've never worked a day in a pro shop. I've also run into dozens of goobers behind the counters in pro shops I would NEVER allow to touch my bow. Just because the guy is standing on the other side of the counter doesn't mean he knows his elbow from his you-know-what.

Hope you enjoyed reading a short synopsis of my archery career. You've seemed awful anxious to compare notes.
Arthur P is offline  
Old 10-17-2004, 08:14 AM
  #24  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
Default RE: feathers in the rain

Big,I've been reading this thread and do believe you whole heartly believe your own testing. I think I found a flaw in your thinking. You said"vanes are able to maintain there speed because of less friction and wind resistance to maintain speed and rpms to stableize the arrow. " Thats where we differ in thinking. In my thinking Speed/rpms have nothing to do with stablizing the arrow. The fletching length and profile is what stablizes the arrow. Feathers grab more of the air (which may slow down the arrow) then vanes which take controll and stear the arrow from the rear faster then vanes. The bigger the profile the better the controll. I haven't shot vanes in 10 yrs. or so but I notice the newer vanes have a rough surface or a little raised dipple on the edge. In my thinking they are trying to grab more air for stablizing. Feathers are more forgiving with contact then vanes. Thats been my thinking for yrs. Right or wrong it's worked well for me. Jerry
Jerry/Pa is offline  
Old 10-17-2004, 10:18 AM
  #25  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stafford Virginia Stafford,Va
Posts: 593
Default RE: feathers in the rain

Why do so many experienced archer shoot feathers instead of plastic vanes?

Because feathers work better.
Using feathers results in higher arrow velocities, greater stability, better guidance, higher accuracy and more forgiving flight.


Why are feathers faster?

First, feathers weigh much less than plastic vanes - as much as 700% less. This means less mass to accelerate and less energy wasted. Feathers typically save 40 grains over plastic. This is a lot of surplus mass - 30% of a typical 125 grain steel head.
Second, feathers produce less friction as they travel over the arrow rest or other bow parts. Less friction means higher speed.

Third, the superior guidance of feathers prevents yawing and fishtailing of the arrows. Yawing and fishtailing add drag and slow arrow speed.


How much speed is gained with feathers?

On typical equipment, independent tests have consistently shown a 5 ft./sec. gain as the arrow leaves the bow.

What about arrow speed after leaving the bow - are feathers still faster down range?

Yes. Independent tests by bow testing authority Norb Mullaney have shown that a feather fletched arrow is still traveling 4 ft./sec. faster than plastic fletch, 29 yards down range. At all normal hunting ranges, feather fletched arrows travel faster, drop less, and arrive sooner than plastic fletched arrows.



Further tests by Dave Holt showed that the feather fletched arrow was faster than the identical plastic fletched arrow out to 41 yards. The feather fletched arrow then matched the plastic fletched arrow out to 61 yards (the limit of the test range). Through out the 61 yard range, the feather fletched arrow arrived at each distance in less time than the vane fletched arrow.


Why do feathers give better guidance?


The surface of a feather has a slight roughness which helps "grip" the air flow. When the arrows yaws, this added grip helps realign it quickly and efficiently.
The huge weight saving with feathers also helps stability. Any weight added to the rear of the arrow (like plastic vanes), makes the arrow LESS stable. Add too much weight on the rear and the arrow will try to swap ends.

Finally, as the fletching crosses the arrow rest on release, feathers simply fold down out of the way, then pop back up. Plastic vanes bounce the rear of the arrow far out of alignment. This large deflection causes a substantial arrow "swing" which is only aggravated by plastic vanes weight and lack of "grip".


Does that "swing" matter?

Yes! While the arrow is yawed, aerodynamic forces are forcing it AWAY from its original path. The arrow is no longer going where it was aimed. Due to the sluggish straightening ability of plastic vanes, the arrow typically oscillates from one yawed condition to another. This yawing cost speed, range and accuracy. What's more, the penetration upon impact of a yawed arrow is lower than an arrow flying straight. The yawed arrow is trying trip itself, dissipating energy in an attempted angle penetration.

Why is bow tuning so much easier with feathers?

The feather's ability to fold down when hit eliminates the large initial swing. The light weight of feathers inherently adds to the stability of the arrow. The "grip" of the feathers adds further to clean, straight flight. The combination of all these advantages means good, consistent arrow flight is built into the arrow. Because of this it will tolerate a wide range of bow variables. Arrow rests, pressure buttons, release aids, shaft spines.. all are much less critical and require a minimum of set up.



Is this what you mean by "forgiving"?


Right. Feathers will fly great even with variations in spine, bow weight, and form or release. And in field conditions not every variable is under your control. Slight variations in shooting form are normal. Time, terrain, obstacles, cross winds.. all add slight variations. The feather fletched arrow not only tolerates these variations - it flies straight and true. Why, you could even nock a feather fletched shaft 180 degrees off (with the cock feather against the arrow plate) and still get an accurate shot. Try that with plastic! (On second thought - don't. Equipment and bystanders might be hurt.)
I know, you or I would never intentionally mis-nock an arrow - but what about a second shot situation? Isn't it a comforting thought to know that you don't have to worry about reverse nocking an arrow, or about having your form and release 100% perfect? With feathers you're free to concentrate on the game, on the environment, and on aiming. You don't need to worry about the feather fletched arrow - it will go where it's aimed. Every time.

Feathers are so forgiving that many hunters shoot right off a solid arrow shelf - with no arrow rest. Surprised? It can and is being done, even with high performance bows. This is one way to make life simple and keep equipment reliable. Again, the idea is to free yourself to concentrate on the objective at hand, not on equipment. This "forgiveness" doesn't end when the shaft leaves your bow. Suppose the arrow passes near a branch or twig. If a plastic vane touches the twig, BANG! back to a big yaw angle, new direction and lower speed. Bad news all around. But if a feather hits that same twig - it folds down and pops back up again. No yaw and no new direction. What more could you ask for?




I shoot a modern high tech cam bow with carbon shafts, overdraw and all the speed up accessories I can find. Do all these advantages of feathers still apply?


Absolutely! Even more so.. High performance set ups mean more energy, higher forces and lower flight times. Stability and solid guidance are even more important. Any errors or imperfections in equipment or form are magnified. Less time is available for your guidance system to do its job.
Besides, if you want high performance, why bog down your arrow with 40 grains of useless mass from plastic vanes?

90% of the feathers we sell are in fact used with modern equipment.


Doesn't the web of the feather fold down to the shaft at high speeds?

NO WAY! We have lots of photos of feathers at speeds above 300 fps and the feathers look great! For example:



Are there any other problems with plastic vanes?


Plenty. For example, plastic's flexibility and stiffness change when the temperature changes. In cold weather plastic is stiff and rigid. In hot weather, plastic goes limp and floppy. This is one more variable which affects arrow flight, bow clearance and bow tuning. Wild cards are great in poker, but not in arrow guidance.



Getting good adhesion of the plastic vane to the arrow shaft can also be a problem. Even special adhesives and laborious shaft preparation sometimes won't hold on the plastic vanes when exposed to the elements and temperature changes.

Plastic vanes are also susceptible to "fletching oscillation". Easton's ultra slow motion videos clearly showed that plastic vanes often "flap" severely when the arrow is shot. This oscillation starts at launch due to the low strength to weight ratio of plastic. It continues as the arrow flies down range.





In contrast, Easton's videos showed that feathers stayed upright, stable, and steady doing their jobs exactly as they are supposed to .. even at speeds over 300 feet per second! Finally, plastic vanes just plain look cheap. Take the most beautiful camo shaft, with the best broad head and finest nock.. add plastic vanes and the arrow looks like it belongs in a toy store.

Are there any disadvantages to feathers?

Well, feathers do cost more. No doubt about it, it is easier and cheaper to mass produce plastic vanes. Feathers must be carefully cut with bases ground accurately. This necessarily involves a lot of hand labor. Each feather must be inspected several times as it is processed. Raw material also is hand cut and inspected. Producing quality feathers fletching is difficult, time consuming and labor intensive. But the results are worth it!
For an added cost of only pennies an arrow, feather fletching gives you all the advantages. The whole object in archery is to hit where you aim. If you can't depend on that, then everything else is wasted. Compared with the costs of shafts, bows, licenses, travel, and all the rest, the cost for feathers is insignificant.


What if I hunt in the rain - how can I protect the feathers?

Excellent dry powder water proofing such as Bob Rightnour's "Fletch Dry" are now available. "Fletch Dry is easily applied to completed arrows, adds virtually no weight to the arrow, does not stiffen the web of the feather and does a super job of water proofing.
"Fletch Dry" treated feathers will shed water for days.. it's really amazing. You have to see it to believe it. (Contact: Rightnour Mfg., Box 107 Main St., Mingoville, PA. 16856)

If you don't have a waterproofing available, then a plastic "baggie" slipped over the fletching will keep the feathers dry indefinitely.


A Final Word

Archery is a great sport and has been a challenge and pleasure for shooters for thousands of years. From the beginning, feathers have always been a part of that pleasure. If you're tired of fighting plastic, then fletch some feathers and have some fun!
We at Trueflight are proud of our role in archery. We supply quality fletching - that works! Every person who gets into archery needs the chance to try feather fletching. Every person who gives up the sport because of equipment hassles and the disappointing performance of plastic vanes is a loss to all of us. No one needs the added hassles and frustrations of plastic vanes.

We hope this information will help both dealers and individual archers. Your comments and suggestions are always welcome.


Pete Roemer, V.P. Engineer

You may find the following check list interesting.


Plastic vs Feathers
Where's the Advantage?


Plastic:


Low Cost.
Easy mass production.



Feathers:


Excellent Guidance.
No arrow deflection on release.
No long yardage before stabilized flight.
Higher arrow velocities.
Up to 700% lighter than vanes.
Eliminate bow window clearance problems.
Can be shot off the arrow plate. No tricky arrow rest required.
Less chance of brush deflection when hunting.
Bow tuning is simple and less critical.
More forgiving of mistakes.
Extends useable spine range of arrow.
Target deflection caused by deflection of an arrow hitting the fletching of another is minimal by using feather vanes which simply push open to make room.
Orientation of arrow on string is not critical.
Unaffected by hot and cold temperature extremes.
Aging: Feathers are unaffected by ultra-violet rays. Plastic stiffens and deteriorates.
Ecologically: Feathers are natural bi-degradable products.
Aesthetic: Quality die cuts have a smooth soft natural and historic appeal that can't be matched by the "toy plastic" image of plastic vanes.

Feathers: The confidence Builder!

Nothing equals feathers for:


Speed
Stability
Forgiving of mistakes
Accuracy
BenfromVa is offline  
Old 10-17-2004, 10:37 AM
  #26  
Typical Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Stafford Virginia Stafford,Va
Posts: 593
Default RE: feathers in the rain

One other thing
Chuck Adams, the man who holds more World records on big game than anyone else shoots feathers. Why? here is a guy that ,with that record, could shoot anything in the industry he wants.
There must be a reason.
I started shooting feathers this year after 20 years of vanes.
Shooting a new AR-31 bow,29 inch draw at 67 lbs. Trophy Ridge drop zone rest with 27.5 inch Gold Tip XT arrows with right helical 4 inch feathers. I have shot for many years but have never had more consistant groups as this year.
BenfromVa is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Chuck7
Freshwater Fishing
14
07-01-2009 05:07 PM
ButchA
Bowhunting
5
10-07-2006 07:15 PM
cottonfarmer
Bowhunting
9
08-25-2004 07:25 AM
Bulzeye
Bowhunting
10
05-12-2004 11:05 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



Quick Reply: feathers in the rain


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.