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RE: Shooting form
 

If you get them up, I would be pleased to look at them. The one issue is there is a big difference between diagnosing a form "eror, and giveng advice that will make someone a better shooter. If you have ever watched golf, you will know that Jim Furik a great player had a funky homemade swing so odd, that they made ads making fun of him. Changing his club path oddities would likely not make him a better player. On the other hand, any coach would correct a beginer leaning in that direction, since there is no advantage to his loop the loop swing.

I can often pick out the way in which someone's form is unorthodox, in golf, or archery, making the recomendation that will actually make you a better shooter is a whole other thing.

RE: Shooting form
 

Here you go Jason, may the comments flow.











Edited by - MDBOHUNTR on 01/07/2002 10:43:35

RE: Shooting form
 

If I may jump in....The 1st thing I see is you may want to shorten the drawlength a little,you are leaning back at the waist a good bit and IMHO your anchor point is kinda far back.By shortening up it will help your anchor as well as put your head in the erect position(your head is tilted down)The idea is your body and arms should form a "T" with your head erect.I don't think your draw is excessivly long but may need shortened a tad and don't lean back at the waist.
I see your hand is closed which is OK if your hand is closed but relaxed and not GRIPPING the bow.
I can't see your feet,but it looks like your stance is closed pretty tight,you may want to open up a shade and see if it feels any better.

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RE: Shooting form
 

No bow sling? Hard to NOT grip the bow without a bowsling....

You could probably shorten up that draw by an inch and still be plenty long with your release hand/anchor point. Like OHarcher mentioned- look how you're leaning back at full draw. That tends to happen your someone's draw lenght is too long. Unfortunately, I think you would need to buy another module for your Mathews to shorten up an inch....

You might want to take another picture from directly behind you and directly in front of you (with a remote for camera! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>) to see the alignment from those angles as well.

You can't really have a complete critique from just a few pics, so take all the comments with that in mind. You are just sharing a few snapshots for the forum to peek at and comment on.

RE: Shooting form
 

On the Mathews you can only shorten or lengthen 1/4&quot; or so by twisting/untwisting.If you twist/untwist to much you will foul the timing up. A shorter cam is your best bet.

RE: Shooting form
 

The draw length, like everyone is saying, is definitely 1&quot; and maybe 2&quot; too long. Have you ever had someone do a wingspan measurement?

The grip can be done loosely without the use of a bow sling or finger sling. I proved this to Alexander Kirollov, PSE Coach and previous Russian Olympic Gold Medal Coach, to his complete surprise.

You should get that draw length down before you take any more pictures. Your form is typical of many who have been over-bowed for too many years.

RE: Shooting form
 

Varmint,

I noticed that your hips are pushed towards the target and that your leaning back at the waist and forward at the shoulders. Your shoulders should be level and your hip should not be pushed forward, just rocked a little bit backwards. Just changing your hips and stance to be more balanced should square your shoulders.

On your bowarm, I would try to turn it slightly so your elbow is bent out more on the horizontal (90 degrees off the angle the bow is hanging) - this will be easier when your front shoulder isn't dropped so much.

Grip - get a sling! Your bow hand should be totally relaxed and that is impossible unless you know the bow isn't going to bounce out of your hand when you release. (Len just posted so I will add - &quot;what Len says&quot; - He's right, the sling is nice mental insurance but not necessary. I've seen some shooters make a circle with their thumb and index and the bow loosly rides in there and a sling isn't necessary for them)

My $.02. What ever you do - if you do it consistantly every time, you will eventually learn to shoot well. Archery is a sport of consistancy. Even consistant bad form is going to be better than inconsistant good form. :)

_________
SuperX


Edited by - SuperX on 01/07/2002 10:49:08

Edited by - SuperX on 01/07/2002 10:51:28

RE: Shooting form
 

You should be standing straight with your head erect, instead of bending your head down to touch your nose to the string. You definitely need to shorten up your draw, as already noted. I tend to agree with Len. About 2&quot; too long. That would also cut down the string angle and probably keep your nose-tip anchor reference.

It would probably knock your arrow speed for a loop, but you'd be a lot more comfortable, stable and consistent.

RE: Shooting form
 

I anchor the same way you do. My draw is most likely a bit long, but I shoot fine that way. I bring one of the vanes into the spot between my mouth and chin and use that for one of my anchor points. I shortened my draw to see what would happen and hated it. I could not shoot worth a damn and it just felt wrong. As long as your draw isn't so long that you have to lock your elbow I think you will be ok. Try a bow with a shorter draw to see how you like though. Everyone is different.

As far as your grip goes, I had a guy that target shoots show me how to grip that way. The philosophy was the less you touch the bow, the less you can torque it. I tried it for a while, didn't work for me. Again, the way you grip a bow is a very idividual thing and will vary from bow to bow. You have to play with it and see what works best.

A bow sling, do you need one or not? I don't use one and I shoot fine. If you have a bow that jumps out of your hand when you shoot it, you need one. I have put so much crap on my bow that it does not move when I shoot it. It just sits there in my hand after the shot. I have shot a few mathews that were the same way bone stock. I shot a Ultra 2 that jumped right out of my hand and hit the floor though. That was embarissing, but at least I showed good follow thru! I would recomend a sling if you are going to hunt from a stand, if take a shot at a close deer the bow may fall right off your hand on to the ground.

You might try shortening your release a little and see how you like it, it worked for me.

None of what I have said is expert advice. Just throwing my two cents in and letting you know what works for me. It's hard to critique form without actually seeing you shoot the bow.

Good luck, Paul

RE: Shooting form
 

It looks like your draw length should be shortened anywhere from and inch to an inch and a half. Get this changed and then send us some more pics.

RE: Shooting form
 

And just a note that if you DO shorten you draw up by an inch or more- GIVE IT A CHANCE! It will feel completely awkward, strange, and 'not right' at first because your muscles are so used to the current situation.

Some recommend to shorten draw in little increments to allow a gradual acceptance, others will just make the jump and readjust. Either way you'll need to allow for an adjustment period where you probably won't shoot as well right off the bat. But in the long run you will benefit from it.

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RE: Shooting form
 

Paul Mohr
In your post you stated that when you shotened your draw &quot;it just felt wrong&quot;. It may have felt wrong because you were so used to shooting with a long draw and your muscle memory didn't feel right with the shorter draw.
When a person goes through a drawlength change(especially shortening) it is going to feel like $h&t for a while until you program your body to the new proper form,it isn't going to feel good in a week or even month.
It may take a long time for you and your body to adjust to it because it feels so much different then it used to,but beleive me it will improve accuracy in the long run,I myself shot a 29.5&quot; draw for years,in the early 90's I began shooting 3D competitivly and not long after got around a bunch of good guys who helped me with the basics of form.The first thing they did was shorten my drawlength,and I like you thought....This isn't the way it feels good,but after a while and hours of practice I began shooting better than I ever thought possible I am now a 28&quot; draw and very comfortable with it.

By no means am I trying to slam anyone. Just stating that form improvements will not happen overnight they need lots of days/weeks to begin to feel good.

RE: Shooting form
 

First thing my coaches would say is why the heck are you leaning are you shooting 90metres or something, Try standing up straight and normal, and letting your bow arm out a little, it should have a slight bend in it but it looks kind of extreme. Im gonna make a guess against everyone elses that your drawlenght is fine, you just need to fine tune your form. Put a little bit more of your weight on your front leg, it will cause the lean to disapait.
First things first, grab one of your arrows, stand up straight, wrap your hands around the arrow index fingers touching, know bring your hands up to your chin, elbows out like you are drawing your bow, with back tension, after you feel you have a good back tension drop your bow arm down like you have a bow in your hand now, do this in front of a mirror if possible, it should give you a good Idea of what your form should look like. Is your anchor solid bone to joint? If not then you may need to shorten your drawlength, but I am thinking you may not have to once you stand up a little straighter, expand a little more. Your torso is also twisted up a little which can't be good for you or your shooting. This is how my coach remedies me of this, get a person you know like your wife kids if old enough, friend, Take an arrow with feild tip, put the feild tip in your stomache, in the middle somewhere, now get the other person to hold the arrow in their stomache standing up straight and facing parrallel to you. If you twist out of straight form, you will feel the feild point dig in, if you don't you won't. Its not lethal, but it does hurt like heck, sounds kind of cruel but I don't have any scar's ahaha. Ive seen, teens that shoot with me do the lean once and a while without even knowing it, I probably do to, Just remember to shift the weight of your body foward. Expand a little more because that is what compounds are good for. I would think about getting a wrist or finger sling as well, I don't know how relaxed your hand is on the grip. Anyways, for now, good shooting, hope we haven't overloaded you with ton's of info.
Good shooting.
Dylan

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RE: Shooting form
 

Now I am late to the party...

I think there is something wrong with the shoulders. The bow shoulder seems to be pulled around and the release arm tucked. Apparently it is legitimate to have an unballanced back tension with a compound, but I don't know what it is supposed to look like, and after years of shooting recurves etc... I don't want two forms. If that is what you want, then you need to work on your back tension, and that would be near the top of my list.

I'm not a coach like some of these other guys, and while I see the connection between the lean, and being overbowed, I don't see the connection between that and draw length. I wasn't sure because it looked to me as though your right shoulder isn't all the way back (and your bow arm is bent), but I can't get a clear view of it to tell. If you were shooting for 90 m as per the coach's quip, obviously your right arm elevation would show it, and abscent that, a lean actually robs you of draw length, just as shooting down out of a stand can shorten length (if accompanied by inadequate bend at the waist). But I am not contradicting the consensus, since perhaps this body position is a tell to the more experienced.

Right arm bend looks fine to me on a high let off compound. If you are shooting for hunting and wear lots of clothes, the more the merrier.

I don't much like the look of your grip. I am not saying it is wrong, it is just my prefrence to accompany a bent elbow with a low grip. What the manufacturers, and Mathews in particular seem to be doing is providing the much vaunted &quot;narrow throat&quot; along with a crappy &quot;feels good&quot; grip lower down. This means the only torque free position is sort of high wrist. This looks like it is straining your bow arm. Get a real low grip like a Shrewd Precision, or alter the wood on your Mathews to get a real low grip where the pressure point lies more in line with the arm. The Shrewd low is about the same angle as the front of the riser, which is real low. The Shrewd medium is less extreme, but still low enough. I shoot the low with my fingers outside, so you might like that also.

RE: Shooting form
 

VS: When I stated 1&quot; or 2&quot;, it was based on the pictures and depends entirely on YOUR form characteristics based on YOUR comfort level. My interpretation of your picture was based, not only on the leaning and bent bow arm, but mainly on the position of your release hand (dangling in mid air) and the string against your face. It &quot;appears&quot; that your nose and kisser position is at least 1&quot; further up the string than what would be considered normal. By shortening the draw length, the nose/string contact can remain good while the release hand is raised to contact a good anchor point either at the back of the jawbone or under the ear, which is also at the back of the jawbone but higher.

Now that you tell us your wingspan is 72&quot;, that converts to about a 28.5&quot; draw length. Considering that most bow manufacturers give us from 1/2&quot; to 1 1/2&quot; longer draw length than what is labeled, I would imagine that yours is about 29 1/2&quot; if the minimum norm is taken into account. That is 1&quot; longer than what you probably need and would account for the release hand position.

Bottom line, seek professional help from a good archery &quot;Coach&quot; if you want to promote more proficient shooting.

RE: Shooting form
 

I'm late, too, and everyone pretty much nailed it for you. Len made a good account of the problems with most manufacturers running longer-than-stated-on-the-limb drawlengths, Mathews typically runs over by about 3/4&quot;, which can account for some of your problem. If you have a 29&quot; cam on it, you can be pretty sure it is close to a 30. I cannot tell if you are shooting a loop or not, this will affect your anchor also, shorten it up as much as possible if you are using one. Your stance definately needs adjustment once you get your drawlength woes taken care of, tho sometimes this all balances out once you get the equipment to fit you correctly. The guys did a good job on this one, go get properly fitted by a reputable tech/coach. You can shoot &quot;shorter&quot; a heck of a lot easier than you can &quot;longer&quot;, and unfortunately in your case you are definately too long IMO. Good shooting, P12

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RE: Shooting form
 

Got you Len. Well put.

Of course, I ment to say bow arm bend, not &quot;right arm&quot; bend, in my second to last paragraph. Oops.

RE: Shooting form
 

VarmitSniper

What you said about reaching the plateau is exactly what has happened with you current form.I have been their as well as most anyone that hasn't gone out and got a coach before they even buy their first bow.I was stuck at 270 for a while and then got a bow that fit and 2 years later broke into the 290's.This is on 300 point 3d courses.I thought I was as good as I was going to get,wrong,just wrong form and equipment.

55 mentioned some good points about standing up straight and straightening out your arm a bit.(do not lock your elbow) I still believe the draw will still be a bit long even when you do this.28&quot; or 28 1/2&quot; would most likely do the trick.27 1/2&quot; would be better than what you have now but I would go ahead and bite the bullet and get the right cam,you will be happy you did.Although the 27 1/2 with a d-loop would probably be good.

RE: Shooting form
 

Varmit Sniper,

Make sure you get that sling. Also, when shooting, every mussle that can be relaxed, should. That includes your face, shoulders, arms, mouth, jaw, and most importantly, your hand. If your hand is normally like that in a relaxed position, great, if not let it relax.

In order to shoot with a relaxed hand, without a sling, you have to &quot;catch&quot; the bow after the shot. If your hand is truly relaxed, the bow will fall right out of your hand-any bow.

Take it from someone who regulary gets to shoot with or around the best archers in the country, including Rod White, Olympic Gold Medalist-use a sling, they do.

Remember too, most people can shoot better with a draw-length 2 inches too short, than they can a draw-length a 1/2&quot; too long. You can always bend the elbow, but you can't lengthen your arm!

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: Shooting form
 

Well I shortened my draw up about an inch yesterday, we will see what happens. I don't know what the exact draw is, but if I mark an arrow at the end of my riser at full draw it is 25 1/4 inches. I refuse to go under 25 inches no matter what it does to my form! I don't want to have to buy that kids bow at walmart for my next bow. I will try it for a few months and see how I like it.

I noticed the reason it felt odd before was because I tried to use the same anchor points as before and I had a lot of bend in my arm. If I push my bow out so the string touches the tip of my nose it feels better. But that puts my arrow down by my chin. It did seem a little more accurate at 40 yards even after about 10 shots or so. I used to draw back and anchor my thumb behind my neck, it's hard not to do that after so long, Oh well.

Paul

RE: Shooting form
 

Hey Paul, I am sure not an archery coach and most of these guys on here have forgot more than I'll ever know. But, I think that puting you finger behind the neck is a poor anchor point. I think that causes some torque on the bow. I could be wrong, and if I am someone correct me.

RE: Shooting form
 

Paul
To measure your bows drawlength........ Measure from the grip throat (deepest part of grip) to the &quot;v&quot; in the bowstring while at full draw then add 1 3/4&quot; this is the drawlength of the bow.
Hope this helps.

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RE: Shooting form
 

VS

In most of my experiences with the Straitline Max Cam which comes on the Q2XL and Q2 they all seem to be 3/4&quot; longer than stated...... Example=My Q2XL has a 27.5&quot; cam but actually draws 28 1/4&quot;.
If you can get a cam which puts you within a 1/4&quot; or so of your wingspan measurement you could do some twisting/untwisting to get that 1/4&quot; either way without hurting the timing much.
You are also correct about shorter being better.I personally would rather be 1&quot; too short than 1/2&quot;long.
Good luck and give it time. Good Shootin.

RE: Shooting form
 

I measured my bow and the amo length is between 25 1/2 and 26 inces. I did the wingspan thing and came up with around 25 inches. So I am pretty close to what I should be.

Varmint sniper, I took some video of myself and while my arrow touches in the same spot as yours my hand is nowhere near that far back. My knuckle is right under my ear at the back of my jaw bone. I noticed something odd about your pictures. Your release is not around your wrist, it is accross your palm and the back of your hand. That could cause you to be a few inches off on your anchor. I have noticed that getting a release that fits well and is properly adjusted really helps you shoot better.

I learned some intresting things doing this. One being I can't touch the string to the tip of my nose and shoot. It makes my eyes cross! I guess my nose is too long. The other is that when you change your draw length your nock moves, at least on my bow. Glad I looked at it first.

Oh, about anchoring with my thumb behind my neck, if you let your thumb support the weight it does do strange things. I usually just lay it on my neck. But I tried it with my thumb along the bottom of my jaw and that works just as well, so I will do it that way just to be safe. Thanks for the tip.

Paul

RE: Shooting form
 

www.truball.com go to this site, under backtension by Larry Wise will let you know about shot execution, it even has some stick pictures that may help. Good shooting.
Dylan


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Edited by - 55#recurve on 01/08/2002 15:43:41

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