Arthur P mentioned something...
 

That's had me thinking. It was related to how a Deflex riser nestles into your hand easily and repeatedly, ensuring consistent hand placement on the bow.

Now I'm wondering if it is the deflex/reflex nature of the riser, or the brace height that provides the forgiveness?

What would be the difference in a deflex riser with an 8" brace and a reflex riser with an 8" brace? Would one be more forgiving than the other?

If deflex would be, I think it'd be neat to see a very fast bow like the BT Black Knight with a highly deflex riser. That'd put the brace around 7-8" and should still be a screamer in the 320s or so...

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

I read about an alternate setup for the Blacknight for longer draw length people that had a 7" brace hight. Why can't it be set up for that 7" brace hight for a little shorter drawlengths?

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

The deflex riser itself is far more forgiving than a reflex riser. Higher brace height on a reflex riser bow is more forgiving than a lower brace, but not nearly to the same level when compared to riser configuration.

Picture this: When you're shooting at a target, you're pulling the string one direction while pushing the riser the other direction, trying to keep everything - string, arrow, cams, limb tips, limb pockets, riser and grip - lined up in the same plane from your eye to the target, so the arrow will fly where you want it to. Now, with that image in your mind...

Look at a reflex riser bow. The grip is BEHIND the limb pockets, which makes the limb pockets the forward center of pressure, but in front of the limb tips. When you draw the bow, the string is the rear center of pressure. So, when you've got the bow drawn, you're pulling the limb tips toward you while attempting to keep the limb pockets pushed away in the same plane toward the target.

Your hand has a lot of leverage because it's between the two centers of pressure. Vary the pressure of your hand just a little bit, and you can move the limb pockets out of alignment with the limb tips and target. That's called torque. A reflex riser bow CAN be shot very accurately, but it's also exceedingly demanding of exactly proper form.

Check out a deflex riser bow. On a deflex riser, the grip is in front of both the limb pockets and limb tips. The grip becomes the front center of pressure. When you pull the bow's string, the limb tips and pockets are automatically pulled into the same plane of alignment with the target. Your grip has very little leverage to move the limb pockets out of alignment. VERY difficult to torque a deflex riser bow.

In fact, if you have a slick grip and keep your hand loose, the force of drawing the bow will force your hand to slide into almost exactly the same grip placement for each shot.

That's why a deflex riser bow is so much more 'forgiving' than a reflex riser bow, even when both bows are otherwise identical (same limbs/cams/axle to axle length). Naturally, if you have identical bows but one has a riser that is reflexed 1" and the other is deflexed 1", the deflex riser bow will have a brace height that's 2" higher - another 'forgiveness' factor. But, that's also 2" less power stroke. Less power stroke = less speed.

I really like the forgiveness of deflex riser bows a lot more than raw speed. Too bad this speed freak foolishness has blown a great riser profile almost completely out of the marketplace. A whole lot of people would be enjoying their shooting a lot more and struggling with their accuracy a lot less if they were able to buy deflex riser bows.

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Art, thanks a ton for posting that. Very informative. With the speeds modern bows/systems are spitting out these days, I'd really like to see someone build a deflex riser with a fast cam system.

The example I gave on the Bowtech Black Knight would be a good one. Put a deflex riser on it and shorten the ATA to 32" or so, and one should have an easy to aim hunting bow with a 7-8" brace that will still IBO at 320. Add some VFT to reduce recoil, and it has the makings of a sweet sweet hunting bow.

Crap. I should've asked this when Bowtech was looking for input for their '05 line. Perhaps '06...

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

http://2002c.benpearson.com/mark.asp

A true deflex bow , never shot one , but it looks diferant .

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

I've been tossing the same thing around in my head (I know , scary:D) since that last thread.
Arthur makes some excellent points! I came to the conclusion myself that it has to be the deflex riser for one simple reason. I've shot alot of reflex riser bows with 8" brace heights and longer ATA that didn't compare to the forgiveness I had with the deflex riser bows I've owned in the past. The newer (reflex riser) bows are all being manufactured with slim grips to eliminated hand torque. My old bows with the deflex risers had grips similar to a pachmyre(sp?) pistol grip and yet I can shoot them much better. Go figure!

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Sounds suspciously like the MM sans Deflex riser;)

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

I'm guessing that this isn't likely to happen. The parallel limb craze seems to be driving the reflex designs to even greater extremes. To make a parallel limb design with a reflex riser would leave you with an enormous brace height. Not likely to get 320 fps out of something like that. Of course, maybe they've got a design with 6" limbs that might work. :D

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Funny, write up says accurate due to "Deflex Riser" design, but spec chart states riser is "Reflex"...

Has an 8.5" brace and 301 IBO. Gives me even further hope with the Black Knight Hybrid :)

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

I don't know... VFT is more a configuration of what angle the limb pocket is cut in the riser, so with modern materials and techniques I'd think it would be do-able.

http://www.bowtecharchery.com/2004BowGallery/BK.htm

The Black Knight IBO's at 346 (middle of stated range). I have no idea how refexed the riser is, but say it's 3". Add that much deflex to promote pointability, and knock 30 fps off 346, and you have 316, still very respectable. A bit shorter limbs secured to the riser at a steeper angle would bring the ATA down to where I would like to see it, but up to 34" certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker for me :)

Kevin or Pat, are you reading this? :)

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Art, from what point on the bow is deflex/reflex measured, centerline of the limb bolts?

Also, is there a point where no more deflex provides more potential accuracy, or is it a case of more is always better?

Put another way, what is the minimum amount of deflex necessary to gain the most accuracy potential?

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

I guess the bowman bows would be considered deflexed allso whit that handel sticking out front like it does .

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Reflex/deflex is measured from the pivot point of the limb butts, not the limb bolts. It'll be somewhere between the limb bolts and the edge of the riser.

As far as your other questions, if there's a point of diminishing returns with deflex, as far as accuracy and forgiveness are concerned, I really don't know.

At 2" deflex, the Hoyt ProVantage/Superslam series bows are the most heavily deflexed bows I've ever shot and they were something! Even though those risers had a reputation for breaking, they're still my favorite compounds of all time. I won MANY tournaments with those bows, field archery and 3D. I even won a 3D shoot a couple years back with my Superslam Legacy, even though it only lobs a 2315 out there around 220 fps. (Getting whupped by an old fart with a 10 year old Hoyt really torqued off those Mathews shooters with their brand new Q2's.)

Now I shoot a ProTec with 1" deflex and, truthfully, I don't shoot it quite as well. The grips are very different though. The PV/SS have high wrist, hand filling grips that fit me like a glove - there is one way and ONLY one way I can grab their grips - while the ProTec grip is just two thin wooden plates screwed onto the sides of the skinny handle. It rattles around in my hand like a bean in a tin can. So, it's really hard to say for sure whether it's the less deflex or the undersize grip is what keeps me from shooting it as well.

Going back even further, past the Superslams, past the ProVantages, to my old Hoyt ProHunter, it had a straight riser. No reflex or deflex. I shot it very well, but I definitely shot the ProVantage better.

So, just based on my experiences, I'd say I would want at least 1" but not more than 2" of deflex if I was designing a riser for myself.

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Thanks.

I hear ya on the skinny grips. I'm struggling with mine, I much prefer the high wrist big palm swell grips of old. I have to pay strict attention to get the same grip each time, and while I'm able to maintain bowhunting accuracy just fine, I'd really prefer not to be so meticulous about gripping. I tried and tried the "minimal contact with the riser only hitting the web between your thumb and forefinger with an open hand" and I absolutely hated it, it's just not me.

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Yup! That can of Bondo I've got in the garage is just aching to be made into a high wrist grip on that ProTec.;)

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

From pivot point of limbs to where? Deepest part of the grip on the string side of the riser, I assume?

If so, I just eyeballed mine, appears to be somewhere between 2-3"... Yeesh.

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Yeah. Left that part out, didn't I. [&:]

RE: Arthur P mentioned something...
 

Art....


Great posts....

One of these days Im bringing my stickbow and my compound to Dallas and shoot with you !