Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

I'm having a fun time trying to get my preferred broadheads to group well at 30 yards and was wondering if I could mooch some info from fellow Patriot shooters with like set-ups.

1. What is your center shot set at? How many inches from the riser or painted bars on rest over?
2. How long does your arms rest stay up before dropping?
3. At what height is your nocking point?

I know these are elementary questions, but I've tried all the obvious options and still come up with less than desired results.

Here's where I'm at - 65# pull, 29" draw, 418 grain 28" Beman ICS black 340's.
1. My best 30 yard group(1.5-2") with muzzy 3 blade 100's is acquired with the center shot at dang near a full inch from the riser!?! (~15/16")
I cannot even acquire a group with my preferred muzzy Phantom 100's, or regular muzzy 4 blades.

2. In order to get a bullet hole and FP/ BH hitting the same height I have my rest arm coming up at about 4-5" full arrow support during the draw.

3. Nocking point is 1/16" above even when measured at the center of the nock.

When I tried bare shaft tuning the arrow always landed nock out (left) of impact, no matter what I tried.
75-grain point? - Nock left
Took 1 full turn off each limb- nock left
Adjusted drop zone as far as it would go away from the riser- nock left

Any help and free measurement would be much appreciated!

If all else fails, I always did like my 3- blade muzzies:D, just like the phantoms better( they shot excellently form last years rig).

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

I've got the same setup, but I'm at work and can't take measurements right now. What are your arrow's specs?

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

418 grain 28" Beman ICS black 340's
fletched with 4" helical duravanes

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Based on the Beman site, you're overspined but not by much. I too cannot bareshaft tune very well and I get that same signature left kick you describe. In my latest tuning attempts, I paper tuned for center shot, but I could not for the life of me get rid of a tail low tear. With the season getting close, I decided to broadhead tune based on Easton's tuning guide and it worked well. I made microadjustments and walked the broadheads into the field tips. Groups are as tight as I can shoot them and I'm happy overall.

My arm rises and drops about 5 inches from the end. While I can't measure right now (at work), 1/16" is very close.

I'd try paper tuning from a distance of 4 feet and a fletched arrow. Do worry about being too precise. Then try broadhead tuning with the 4-bladers. I read once that one of the best ways to tune your bow is to take the biggest broadhead you can find and adjust in relation to field tips. It really makes perfect sense when you think about it.

LOL.....sorry I missed your arrow specs the first time.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Mrfritz44, Thanks for the help, if you could get that measurement I'd sure appreciate it. I've moved that bar in and out so much I think the bolt needs lubricated;).

I went into round 10 today. My body is worn out[>:]. I've never shot a bow so much in my life. I'm tired of fooling with my paper tuning rack.
It seems no matter what I try the broadheads are right of fieldpoint impact. If I move the rest all they way out (past 1" over) same deal.

I tried shooting my Easton 400's through it- no dice. Weak spine reaction through paper. Shot like crud. For some reason the BH tipped 400's were way low when the 340's were not?

So what I'm left with is a bow that is kicking the arrows out , nock away from the riser, hard.
In the end I gave up and put the things back where they before I started this game.
I eased off on the drop zone chord, recentered and shot through paper. My fieldpoints are grouping good and straight at 20 and 30 yards.
Until I figure out what Magic needs to be performed the Patriot will stay at home while I hunt with my old TRUSTY mathews. Really aggrivating to spend $650 on my "new bow" and then run into this[&o]. It's probably a simple fix, but I'm out of clue's.
I'm gonna give pro shop guru #2 a shot at it next week (after my moring hunt with my back-up).

Anyone have any pointers? I'm all ears!

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

I've attached images of the Drop Zone settings and the arrow's orientation on the rest. My initial estimates on what my measurements are were wrong, as you'll see.

Centershot - 15/16" (actually closer to 29/32" but good luck getting that)
Nock is a full 5/8" above the rest
The launcher arm comes in contact with the arrow 15 1/5" from the "U" in the nock. That is 15 1/2" from the back of the arrow.

I'm shooting 388G Gold Tip 7595's with 100G tips. Arrow length is 27". The nock height seems high, but I've heard it's the norm on many fall away rests. All I know is that broadheads are hitting with field tips out to 50 yards, and that if I don't punch the shot, the arrow goes where I released.

Good luck and let me know if it works out.

Fritz

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

I can tell already my nock is moving northbound when I get home tomorrow:D.

Mr. Fritz, nice chatting with you and thanks again for the help.

One thing I forgot to ask is in reference to the 5/8"high nocking point.
To obtain that #er, where are you measuring from?
The actual bottom of the tied in nock's location?
or the actual center of the nock when an arrow is on the string?

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

From the crotch in the rest's launcher arm to the bottom edge of the tied in nock.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Bottom edge of the tied in nock, got it.

Ever since the string loop has come into fashion I've had a hard time discerning where the "nocking point" measurement is taken from when others quote it.

For me and my string loop I'll just use your #er with my upper knot.

Thanks again!

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

No problem.

For what it's worth, I'm shooting directly off the string with an eliminator button. I remember reading here recently how much nock pinch will affect your consistency. You may want to investigate how tight your nock grips the serving. I'm no expert, but it makes sense that an overly snug nock could lead to inconsistent flight.

It may be another factr to consider before you go to great lengths to tune.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Well Mr.Fritz, a neighbor (who has a like equipped Gladiator shooting awesomely w/ Muzzy Phantoms) and I spent another 3.5 hours wrenching on it today. By the end of the session we were both wore out:(.
I set up everything like yours and immediatly achieved nice bullet holes at 4', 5yards and 10 yards. Then we proceeded to shoot B/H's at 20 and 30 and tune from there.

The Muzzy 3 bladers once again performed well, less than desired, but well. His 2 blade stingers shot the best. But the Muzzy Phantoms were still no dice-some high, some low, some left, some right.
I could understand this if I was shooting high speeds, but this rig consistently chronies 263-267fps.

So at this point it looks like I'll be flinging Stinger 4 blades and muzzy 3 blades. My phantoms will have to stay home (for now).

I might look into the tiller trick I read about last night from ArthurP.
Somethings still not right, shootable- yes, perferect -no[&o].

I'm taking the bow to a new shop on Monday afternoon so they can help diagnose the "creaky draw" and I will have the "better tech" give my rig a look see to get his opinion.

Thanks for the help, I'm now headed in the right direction- just not there yet.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

You're welcome, and I'm sorry it didn't come around like you hoped. You've got me wondering what a 4-blade would fly like out of this bow. I may have to explore that at some point.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Most likely perfect. Sounds like your rig is good to go.
I had my Mighty-mite shooting Phantoms, Muzzy 4 blades, & 3 blade muzzies pefectly last year. I would have kept it, but my left shoulder and it didn't get along.

I've just got an odd deal going on with this set-up.
I'm starting to wonder since I ordered a heavy 60 (odd limbs), how well my limbs are really matched.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

MrFritz44- here's an update and ?

After doing some searches on different broadheads that "shot like field points" I ran across several threads mentioning SLICKTRICKS. Then I remembered I had 2 left from last year I never shot. With my mighty-mite shooting phantoms so well I never really gave the Slick Tricks a shot. I loaned one of the 3 pack out which is still imbedded in a 3-d deer's leg[>:].
So today I shot the two I had with freshly fletched arrows and both hit dead on at 30.
I then got 2 out of 3 of my 3 blade muzzies to hit within 1" of bull at 30.
The Stingers still shoot perfectly also.
I ran out of time before retrying the phantoms.

After fooling with Mech heads in the past and since my KE has decreased to 65 ft/lbs. I have decided to use them only on stands that are under 15' high due to heavy bone encountered when the shot angle increases. I do prefer their increased wound channel and shorter bloodtrail, especially on evening hunts when going it alone.

Here's my ?
Since the bow will shoot 2 different style- fixed bladed broadheads on the money at 30 and the other style within 1"- is this bow tuned enough to hunt with those heads AND mechanicals?

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Dave:

I'm not Mr. Fritz, but it sounds to me like you have the bow shooting pretty well now compared to the way it was. I'm sure his bow is tuned well, but those big feathers don't hurt too much either.;)

I just got a 2002 Pro 40 (I cam) to play with, and I am having similar issues. The arrow seems to be leaving the bow tail low and left. I tried shooting a few broadheads just out of curiosity, and they were hitting high right. I moved the nock point up, and it seemed to help, but not really enough. Tried a whisker biscuit, and the vanes were coming out with black marks and it seemed like the arrow was being pushed down into the rest more than I've experienced with other bows. Not sure what the deal is. I had to stop playing around, and shoot a bit with my Darton Tundra to be sure I wasn't doing anything to cause the problem. Our PA opener is tomorrow, so experimentation is called to a halt for a while. I'm thinking that using a shoot through rest that limits the downward travel of the nock might be a good thing.[&:]

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Hey Joe, I don't mind if you chime in at all!
Mr. Fritz was just the only one thus far trying to help me out.

My bow is flinging the arrows out tail left hard and then the arrow recovers. UNTIL today my FP's were always left of My B/H's. The obvious fix would be to move the rest out, but when I would try that (and try that, and try that....) my broadhead groups would OPEN UP.
As it sits right now the center shot is a tad over 15/16" away from the riser. Anything past that and the BH groups would increase in size.
The funny thing is when I moved the rest past 1" over I could hear the difference in the arrow flight. I guess the vanes were working OT trying to correct the arrows flight.

I'm happy with where the Patriot sits now and am afraid that when I take it to the pro-shop next week to get the "CREAK" looked at that it will be bumped from it's current state of tune- depending on what they do to it.
If I get time tomorrow I'm gonna fling some more Phantoms and see how they do, I'm not getting my hopes up though. Hopefully a fresh arm and my bows newly found state of tune will allow the phantoms to group better.
If my bows will not group a B/H less than 2" at 30 yards then I will not hunt with them. Too many unpredictable things can happen after the shot to start out with less than an accurate arrow. IMHO


The "I" cam on my 2002 Mighty mite would throw the nock down so hard that I couldn't use my WB deluxe rest with it. Shooting cock-up the inside fletch would actually hit the biscuits holding bar. I tried and tried until I gave up and bought a TT shaky hunter. I had a less than fun time tuning the TT rest I put on it, but when I finally hit that fine line of in tune-ness it was ON.
I put that same deluxe rest on my "I" cam Stalker and it works like a dream, no issues what so ever- go figure?

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Hi Dave......I was hunting yesterday and just started reading this thread again. I've got some questions:

1. What size fletching and what degree of helical are you using?
2. What release are you using?
3. How snug is your nock?

You and I may be very close to the same tune, but as Joe pointed out, those 5" shield cuts may be masking a problem I have too. I met an older, wiser gentlemen on eders.com and started hunting with him occasionally last year. He was very insistent that in hunting situations a large feather with good helical was to be shot. He reminded me that in wind and rain broadheads are going to obviously fly less than perfect, and that this configuration was a way to mimimize flight variations in real world conditions. He also regularly takes deer with fixed heads beyond 40 yards at the fields he hunts. I guess some of that rubbed off on me, hence the arrow style I've chosen. This may or may not be right for you in Texas where hunting ranges may be greater (my impression is that western archers tend to shoot longer distances), but here in PA hunting shots of 40 yards or more are the very rare exception. If your ranges are typical of ours, and if your arrow has little steerage, you may want to try longer fletching at a more radical helical. Arrow speed doesn't drop off fast enough at hunting ranges for the greater slowdown to cause less accuracy, per what another of Easton's tuning guide graphics explains. I say this because I'm getting good groups at 40 & 50 yards with broadheads too.

My GT 7595's and your Beman ICS's list identical spines, and my arrow is only 1" shorter than yours, so I think our arrow specs are sound.

How does you arrow flight look? Remember on the phone I said that after I broadhead tuned my arrow flight was better per my eye. I could focus on that small nock I'm shooting and against dark backgrounds I could actually see the arrow spin into the target. My field tip accuracy went up slighty after broadhead tuning as well. How does your field tip accuracy relate to your tuning changes? Increase? Decrease?

Sorry I can't help you with the creaking........you have a friend with a good ear who may be able to isolate it for you? I remember another Bowtech post where the cable slide was the problem. That problem drove that person nuts too until they found it (I can't remember who it was). As a home test, maybe you can take the slide off and draw the bow?

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Just for reference, here's a look at the helical I'm using.

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

Lets see-
1. 4" duravanes w/ the amount of helical an Arizona E-Z fletch provides.
2. TRU-ball tornado
3. Snug enough not to slide down, but not so tight they won't easily "pop off" when I flick the string with my finger.

All of these components were adequate with my Mighty-mite although I did go down 1/2" in draw length and cut my arrows down 1" (from the back) to compensate for the weak spine reaction bare shaft shooting was giving me. Little did I know this bow kicks any arrow sideways upon departure.

With the slick tricks and stingers the arrows fly straight and true (which is why I'm leaning towards using them). I like what the slick trick website has to say about straight flying arrows and their broadheads doing so = better penetration. Sounds basic, but the way they put it makes a lot of sense.
With the Muzzy 3 blades I can sometimes see an in flight wobble and correction. The arrows tail left after leaving the bow is being corrected and I guess the muzzy 3's catch more wind sideways at launch and take longer to stabilize since they are trying to steer the arrow. IMHO

I did get ONE muzzy phantom mated with a blazer vaned beman 340 to hit ~1.5" groups at 30. I thought the blazers might be the answer so I fletched up another arrow with tem and no-dice.

5" hard helical arrows may be the answer for further distant accuracy, but I've never been one to shoot past 35 yards. My east Texas lease is nothing but thick piney woods (close range) and the deer are so wired any shot attempt past 25 and they usually get out of the way before the arrow arrives. (I had one doe do an inside out back flip at 12 yards 2 years ago!- it worked for her)
Fieldtip accuracy is still good, not too many arrow slappers at 30- but they do happen.
I do have 2 southwest Texas hunts booked for December and hopefully I'll get this issue solved before then. Even so 30 is all I care to shoot.
BTW from what I'm reading, Slick tricks aren’t too shabby!

Right now I'm gonna concentrate on this creak as it's still persistant. Maybe it is the cable rod, I'll recommend THEY(pro-shop guys) look into that first. They have two fancy VFT presses so I'll let them taker down.

Time to pack for my trip, I'll report back when I return (Tuesday- Wednesday)

RE: Any 04 Patriot, Dropzone, Fixed blade shooters out there?
 

I'm at a loss for what to try next. Maybe an expert can make some suggestions. I'm going to try shooting a 4-blade myself if I can get a hold of one. I've always used Thunderheads as the broadhead most likely to plane, just based on their size compared to Muzzy's or these Innerlocs. They fly well on my Patriot now, but they're only 3 bladers too.