JeffB

I can really flub a chronograph reading by pulling super hard into the wall or creeping or torquing the bow. Again there is that human element.

Certainly taken on it's own merits we can say bow X will be "better" than bow Y from a graph or machine testing. That's not my argument. My argument is, when adding the human element do these "machine tests" prove nearly as valuable as far as the end result (hitting what we aim at) is concerned?

Even for the paid pros who are winning year in and year out with "inferior" equipment..they ARE winning...even against shooters with "superior" (as technically tested) equipment. They've done it indoors @ Vegas/AC, and at marked yardage as well. Would they win more with "superior equipment"? Hard to say one way or another until they tried. The fact remains, they still win quite a bit. Does it mean that one company has all the best shooters? They have alot of them for sure, but given the superiority of the "non winners" equipment, should they not be winning instead all the time?

Again it points back to the individual's skill to put the arrow where it needs to go. As I said in the first post..for some of the more "extreme" archery competitions, little things CAN make the difference...for maybe perhaps 1% of the Archers who are the pinnacle of the sport. But "the proof is in the pudding" as they say, and for the rest of us the human element is the factor that needs the least variation or most consistency, no?

BTW: Changed my sig for you Frank

Pinwheel 12

Frank---

To each their own is the answer to that one--- Being on "the inside" I can give you a pretty good look at what is happening technically within the industry, give insight and viewpoints, and even give a pretty good indicator on what will come down the road if you guys wish-- but much like leading a horse to water but not making him drink I cannot force anyone to listen or believe, or shoot what you do not want to, simply due to your own beliefs--- and honestly if solocams float your boat that's fine with me, have fun, at least you are shooting something!! Some people still love recurves too.

I go by technical attributes and experiences along with personal preferences, (yep, human too believe it or not ) and altho I could go on all day long about the pros/cons of one system versus another, the bottom line is you guys will believe what you want, whether I or anyone else can prove otherwise technically on certain issues.

So, in essence we are all just pi$$ing into the wind here aren't we??Because we are all individuals and will believe whatever we want to anyway. Some like Ford, Some like Chevy, Some like Dodge. Same thing here. So enough of this stuff for today---have a great weekend-- I've got to go get some work done and then hit my Bear stand this afternoon! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Edit---Missed your post Jeff, maybe I can get back to it later this weekend.

PABowhntr

Kevin,

I am not challenging the fact that duals or hybrids may be technically superior to single cam bows nor am I contending the fact that the industry may be headed in that direction. I also believe that this is not an issue of "beliefs" but rather one of personal preference as you made mention to in your last post.

I think that is what Jeff was trying to point out with his original post. If a shooter has a personal preference for a bow's feel and shoots better because of it then is that not more important than what the bow should "technically" be capable of?

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and wish you luck with you luck with your bear hunt.

Arthur,

You are old but........"conventional" is a term that Kevin prefers for idler wheel style single cam bows. It seemed appropriate.

Paul L Mohr

I'll second what Frank said about the cams. I own a CPS cam darton, it's what I learned to shoot on. I also own an older martin target bow with daul speed cams and a low let off. When I went looking for a new bow I shot a few, all kinds. Looked real hard a hoyt with the cam and half system. In the end I bought a bowtech mighty might. Why, because I liked it better. I like the way single cams draw if set at the right poundage and the right draw length. I like that quick build up and severe drop at the end. Don't ask me why, I just do. My martin has like 60 or 65 percent let off and dual cams. I HATE it, can't stand the big ole grip either. Sure looks cool hanging on my wall though. Any wants to take it off my hands, 100 bucks and it's yours.

In my above post I didn't mean to imply none of the bow specs are important or tuning just doesn't matter. To the average archer they are important, just not worth obsessing about at times. And to a pro target archer it may make the difference between cutting the line and not cutting the line. So it could get you points and be worth it. Certainly a well tuned bow with the right characteristics is more forgiving. That doesn't really mean accurate though. I still stand by my statement, you give a poorly tuned bow to a good pro and it will still shoot good. People have won tournaments this way. How the bow "feels" doesn't effect anything, the arrow is gone already. With proper shot execution it doesn't matter. It's mostly a mental thing, like shooting a high powered rifle. First shot may be great, but the next may not. The gun isn't any less accurate, you were just anticipating the recoil and messed up the shot. Not the equipments fault is it.

My point is if most people would spend half the time they spent worrying and trying to get thier bow tuned "perfect", and concentrated on practice and a better shot sequence they would shoot better. Myself included. There is a guy locally than runs a shop. He holds a few titles and was on the olympic archery team at one point. He can shoot better at 100 yards then I can at 20. Is it because he obsesses about tuning, or because he shoots a better bow? No, it's because he is a better archer then I am, pure and simple. There are people that can shoot off the shelf with fingers better than some of us can here. What does that say? Our bows still need some more tuning? I don't think so, with the proper spine and fletching an arrow will stabilize. Obviously you don't want it to work harder than it needs to though, that's what tuning does in my opinion. And besides, you can't tune a bow better than you shoot. You may be able to make it more forgiving though, there is that word again.

Paul

Trushot_archer

I can tell you exactly where the line is for me in two disticnt and seperate arenas.

1. How well can I shoot it. How it feels comes ina distant second here but is a factor.

2. Efficiency. This is why I prefer duals or hybrids. These are "theories" that are tangible in the field for me. Faster, harder hitting, flatter shooting arrows for the poundage.

Now I don't understand much of Norb's efficiency ratings but I do understand this...I can get a bow that draws 64lbs to GENERATE 72lbs of KE.

That, to me, is a beautifull machine. Now if it doesn't sound liek a .30-06 going off and doesn't stop my watch with the vibration shooting down my arm AND shoots straight....that's a bow I want to look at.

I seriously wonder if the bows that "feel" best to many of us actually shoots the best for us. I guess confidence goes a long way but I try to be as objective as possible.

I've shot bows that I hated the grip on, were loud and ugly and "not Kelly's kind of bow" and shot the freakin' lights out with them. But I'd never buy one because no matter how well I shot it it wasn't comfortable or fun to do so.

Rangeball

I think alot of things have to do with what it takes for an individual to reach a comfort threshold.

For Kevin, knowing he holds in his hand what he's proven to himself is the best technical advantaged bow gives him superior comfort. Nothing wrong with that. For others, just being able to close enough to the mark on a set up they can take deer with and more importanly afford provides this comfort threshold.

I like learning the ins and outs, and hearing the pro's and cons. I truly appreciate Kevin's and other's insights into the tech and R&D side of the manufacturers. I like trying to learn something new about archery every day. Such knowledge makes me WANT a new bow, but I have confidence knowing the bow I have is more than proficient enough to do the task at hand, and most importantly, it's paid for...

A small percentage will always have the edge in knowledge gained to formulate their comfort level. For what I perceive as the vast majority, "Well, it's good enough to kill that _________ I shot last year" suffices just fine...

Jerry/Pa

Is it me or did this site come alive all of a sudden. Hope everyone is having a good summer. I agree that all this tuning and techie info we gather is to some extent over the top but my obsessiveness draws me to it. I have found I can weed threw it and find what works for me. As far as loyalty goes if I find a manufacture that puts out a good product I have a tendency to stay with it untill it stops working for me dispite what others think or do. Right now I'm on Merlin kick.

Here's something that happened to me this summer. I'm constantly tinkering with my equipment almost to a falt. The past few months I got so busy with work and other things I didn't have time to shoot or tinker. So when I found time to attend a 1/2 dozen or so 3-d shoots I went without much preperation. I scored some of my highest scores I ever shot. My average score increased by 30-40 points. Right now I'm shooting the best I have ever shot just by leaving it alone. So like I said in another thread a little info can be dangerous at times. I was always trying to tweak my equip thinking I can get it shooting better and doing more damage then good. Jerry

JeffB

Exactly Kelly. "Feel" is not what I'm getting at per-se, unless "Feel" makes it "easier" to shoot well for you. If Bow X is "technically superior" but does not hold as steady for you as "inferior" bow Y, and therefore you don't shoot it as accurately..then it all comes back to that Human element. If the bow beats the $**** out of you, and you do not enjoy shooting the bow and your accuracy suffers, what good is the "technical superiority" doing for you?

The last 3 Hybrids I had (all 2004 modeld) apples to apples would not hang with or were equal to similar or "worse" spec singles I had speed and energy-wise. (and BT duals are off the scale, no fair !

My point here is not that singles are superior or inferior, but that here is one of those situations I mentioned in my first post where the evidence in question does not prove anything one way or the other...Extreme amount of variables. Some Hybrids and duals are more efficient, some singles are more efficient than some duals and hybrids. And while BT dual cams are really fast and pretty darn efficient, they also store a TON more energy than most cams of similar draw weight, so once you factor in speed for effort, the efficiency percentage would be lower than the much softer Freedom cam (i.e. the F-cam doesn't store nearly as much energy, but utilizes what it does store more efficiently).

I don't really want to get too far into bow brand specifics in this thread (in fact I'd like to avoid it) but my point in posting is to simply make folks think about where the line between technical tests and practical experience blurs. IMO, and IME, it's once the bow gets in the hands of a human. I'm not basing my experience on being "sheep", or falling prey to marketing either. I'm talking about SHOOTING the darn things. I personally have never let marketing hype sway my decision one way or the other to buy a bow (it may very well have gotten me to LOOK at the bow in question however)...If I have bought a heavily marketed bow brand, it's because I LIKED the bow, not because the ad told me it was the best thing since sliced bread.

Paul L Mohr

I think I took your post the wrong way. Oh well. I do however look for an effecient bow. Mainly because of my size. I want something that will get me closer to the average hunter energy wise with my smaller set up. Not my utmost concern however. I almost bought a lower end hoyt just because I liked it. It wouldn't have been nearly as fast as my bowtech was. And I didn't by the bowtech because of the speed. That was something I discovered after having the bow. Every bow will feel different to every archer. I think size and shooting style has something to do with it. A magazine or an add can't tell you what bow you will like, you need to try them out.

Paul

silentassassin

I am just glad that no one told all those deer that I have killed over the years that I have been shooting inferior equipment