Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
08-10-2004, 06:42 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Chesapeake VA USA
Posts: 135
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
I can vouch that what Len says about the WB is indeed true and a false tune can be achieved frequently. I just went through this on a bow where I cannot get a good tune of of this rest. I can get it to appear to be a good tune at close ranges through paper, but can't get great flight like I am used to having. I use both bare shafts and fletched arrows, so vane contact is not an issue. If I put a standard launcher rest on the bow, I can get a perfect tune quite easily with both bare shafts and fletched arrows. I can powder test the arrow/shaft and get a perfect light line straight down the arrow to the nock on the rest. My next step will be to try the aluminum version and see if I can get it to tune. I have gotten WBs to tune in the past, but this is my first new style one and I think it may be due to the different stifnesses of the bristles. The bow is a Martin Slayr NitrousX and the timing is perfect (creep tuned). I can also feel 100% confident it is not a form or grip issue, as I do a tremendous amount of tuning -- it is the rest.
08-10-2004, 07:53 AM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
Bowfanatic:
If you want to call providing my customers with a rest that they've chosen through detailed evaluation and referrals as "bias" on my part, you're much more wrong than right. Yes, I would personally prefer the MZE and even several other drop-away rests over the WB because of the problems I've experienced with the WB for over 15 years. Now you'll ask how I can have experience with a rest for 15 years that only been out for much less time than that. The answer is that I had a very similar, homemade product back in the late '80s. I guess we should have patented it.
You insinuated that I only tell them negative things about the WB. You're wrong. I tell them negative things, and positive things, about every rest, including the MZE. The difference is that I can fix the problems with the MZE and some of the other drop-away rests. With the WB you get what you get and those negatives stay with you. I know of ways to get better results out of the WB and that will probably occur in a generation or two of that rest. Right now the manufacturer is content on releasing bits and pieces of improvements. After all, that is good for continued acceptance. Even Muzzy has made improvements of their product; but, the basic performance has not been changed.
Regardless of your beliefs, I always point out the expense of the MZE to my customers. That is why I offer so many selections of rests. Just last week a customer chose a different drop-away because of price. He came back two days later to trade it in on a MZE because of noise.
You've got to be kidding. I haven't got the time, nor would the customers want to pay for continued set-up and tuning of rests. Testing different bows is one thing, whereas testing different rests would be quite a burden on me and my staff. There are instances when we'll make a change of a rest; but, they are rare and are usually caused by mechanical/design problems.
That's an interesting comment.
If you'll read the comments by RobVos, you'll see that others find my comments to be valid. Other validity comes from the manufacturer. They didn't change the bristles other than for the reason of fletching problems. They don't offer 'No Snow' just for the fun of it.
If you want to call providing my customers with a rest that they've chosen through detailed evaluation and referrals as "bias" on my part, you're much more wrong than right. Yes, I would personally prefer the MZE and even several other drop-away rests over the WB because of the problems I've experienced with the WB for over 15 years. Now you'll ask how I can have experience with a rest for 15 years that only been out for much less time than that. The answer is that I had a very similar, homemade product back in the late '80s. I guess we should have patented it.
You insinuated that I only tell them negative things about the WB. You're wrong. I tell them negative things, and positive things, about every rest, including the MZE. The difference is that I can fix the problems with the MZE and some of the other drop-away rests. With the WB you get what you get and those negatives stay with you. I know of ways to get better results out of the WB and that will probably occur in a generation or two of that rest. Right now the manufacturer is content on releasing bits and pieces of improvements. After all, that is good for continued acceptance. Even Muzzy has made improvements of their product; but, the basic performance has not been changed.
Regardless of your beliefs, I always point out the expense of the MZE to my customers. That is why I offer so many selections of rests. Just last week a customer chose a different drop-away because of price. He came back two days later to trade it in on a MZE because of noise.
If your going to carry CAP's product then give it a honest chance with the customers. Set it up for them , tune it , let them shoot it awhile , then let them decide which rest they want. Without any influence I know which one they'll choose.
I have a MZE for my Icon , it's a nice rest but it's back in the tackle box now until after hunting season.
I'm at the shop everyday and I dont see any of the problems you describe with the WB.
08-10-2004, 08:14 AM
#13
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Hagerstown, MD
Posts: 689
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
I started out shooting the WB, I liked its simplicity but never got used to the noise and the loss of speed. I made the switch to the MZE and loved it, I was skeptical at first because of all the moving parts, but I really liked it once I got it on the bow. I recently purchased a new HCA tss and dont like the way the MZE sets up on it, so I may try a different rest. I think you just have to find whatever you feel comfortable with and shoots well with your setup and go with it, no matter what the name on the side.
Len,
Have you setup any MZE rests on the new HCA bows? The cable bare comes out at an angle and causes everything to be out of line. Any suggestions?
Len,
Have you setup any MZE rests on the new HCA bows? The cable bare comes out at an angle and causes everything to be out of line. Any suggestions?
08-10-2004, 01:24 PM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
Like I said Len "no disrespect intended"! I'm only making my opinion based upon your negative posts on the WB and pushing the MZE every chance you get over the years.
It appears there are now two people who get a "false tune" from the Wb. Sorry but it sounds to me Rob that you should have been looking at the arrow/spine fletching/tip setup if your getting bullet holes out of the block and getting bad flight down range. I've never seen this problem associated with the WB and if you read any of my posts on paper tuning you'll see I always paper tune from long ranges also.
Your right there! They did exactly what any great company should do , they listened to their customers and offered a better product.
As for the No Snow? I guess they just want to please everyone. I use feathers and I dont see rain/snow being a problem with my WB at all and believe me I put that theory to the extreme test.
I'm not sure what you find interesting about it?[&:] I wanted to give one a try , I picked one up on ebay for a great price , got an installation tape from davidmil , installed it , tuned it , shot it for a month (it was fun) , now it goes in the tackle box for hunting season because to me the WB is Ol' faithful when it comes to a hunting rest.
It appears there are now two people who get a "false tune" from the Wb. Sorry but it sounds to me Rob that you should have been looking at the arrow/spine fletching/tip setup if your getting bullet holes out of the block and getting bad flight down range. I've never seen this problem associated with the WB and if you read any of my posts on paper tuning you'll see I always paper tune from long ranges also.
If you'll read the comments by RobVos, you'll see that others find my comments to be valid. Other validity comes from the manufacturer. They didn't change the bristles other than for the reason of fletching problems. They don't offer 'No Snow' just for the fun of it.
Your right there! They did exactly what any great company should do , they listened to their customers and offered a better product.
As for the No Snow? I guess they just want to please everyone. I use feathers and I dont see rain/snow being a problem with my WB at all and believe me I put that theory to the extreme test.
I have a MZE for my Icon , it's a nice rest but it's back in the tackle box now until after hunting season.
That's an interesting comment.
That's an interesting comment.
08-10-2004, 02:23 PM
#15
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
Hey, guys--
BOTH rests will tune to shoot better than any of us are capable of, and thus the final discussion should be about which one is best suited to the application at hand itself, which is practical hunting purposes. I've thoroughly tested both of these rests myself and must say there is nothing wrong with a MZE if you like all of the extra moving parts---the rest performs as stated once setup correctly. However, so does the WB, and virtually any other rest on the market for that matter---- there is nothing magical about any of them when it comes to performance if tuned correctly--fletched shaft, bare shaft, laser tuned, creep tuned, group tuned, tiller tuned, tuna piano, tuna fish, whatever.
Again, the issue here is which rest is best suited for the particular application at hand, in this case we are talking hunting, not 3D, or distance shooting. For this application, a full containment rest that keeps the arrow in place no matter what, even while stalking, is a big plus. A rest that is accurate, simple, and rugged wins this debate time and time again IMHO.
Bottom line-- Stupid issue to be arguing about if you ask me---Choose whatever you like the best, slap it on your bow, tune it, and let's go hunting! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
BOTH rests will tune to shoot better than any of us are capable of, and thus the final discussion should be about which one is best suited to the application at hand itself, which is practical hunting purposes. I've thoroughly tested both of these rests myself and must say there is nothing wrong with a MZE if you like all of the extra moving parts---the rest performs as stated once setup correctly. However, so does the WB, and virtually any other rest on the market for that matter---- there is nothing magical about any of them when it comes to performance if tuned correctly--fletched shaft, bare shaft, laser tuned, creep tuned, group tuned, tiller tuned, tuna piano, tuna fish, whatever.
Again, the issue here is which rest is best suited for the particular application at hand, in this case we are talking hunting, not 3D, or distance shooting. For this application, a full containment rest that keeps the arrow in place no matter what, even while stalking, is a big plus. A rest that is accurate, simple, and rugged wins this debate time and time again IMHO.
Bottom line-- Stupid issue to be arguing about if you ask me---Choose whatever you like the best, slap it on your bow, tune it, and let's go hunting!
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
08-10-2004, 04:23 PM
#16
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Posts: 289
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
Lefty26,
On properly tuned bows shooting the correct spine arrows the whisker biscuit shoots very quietly and loses little if any speed.
If the tiller on a bow has been adjusted in a certain manner to accomodate fletching clearance for one style or type of rest why shouldn't make sense that it could or rather should be adjusted in a fashion that accomodates the whisker biscuit?
If you can hear the arrow colliding sideways into the rest the bow is not in tune and you would expect to lose speed, accuracy, and any efficiency from a tool if its not in tune.
Most of my last dozen compound bows were used, and they all tuned with the whisker biscuit. The following is what I do to get them to shoot for me.
Read the sticker on the lower limb of the bow, it should have the correct ATA length, BH, and draw weight on it.
Measure the bow and make sure it conforms to its specifications and its cam or cams are in time.
Set the bow at an even tiller, three even turns out from the bottom on both limbs is even enough to start shooting the bow.
Use the correct spine arrows for the bow, and select the correct size biscuit for the arrow. The correct arrow to biscuit fit is a loose one not a tight one.
Install the whisker biscuit on the bow. The biscuit should be installed so that it is parallel to the bowstring, not tipped forward and not tipped backwards.
Install the nockpoint above the arrow on the bowstring so that the arrow isata 90degree angle to both the bowstring and the biscuit.
The initial windage for the rest should be set so that the arrow lines up with the stabilizer on the bow. If there is no stabilizer line the arrow up with the string and the cams.
The optimum windage setting for the rest should be established by grouptuning at different distances for the narrowest group. When the bow is stacking arrows on the same vertical line at all yardages its set right.
The nocking point can be left at the 90degree position on the bowstring.
If the bow shoots an arrow nock high or nock low, the bows tiller can be adjusted so that the bow shoots a level arrow. A nock high arrow would be corrected by tightening the lower limb bolt. A nock low arrow would be corrected by tightening the upper limb bolt.
Tuning a bow in this fashion does not require a lazer, or a ruler, or a bowsquare.And all of the adjustments can be made with a wrench.
Its been my experience that bows tuned this way will shoot broadheads and fieldpoints to the same hole.
Anyway thats how it works for me. The whisker biscuit is very quiet shooting, accurate, and it stays in tune. I have gotten upwards of 50,000 shots on an original whisker biscuit that has been on six different bows. I have just recently upgraded that particular rest to a B-2 whisker biscuit. The well worn original biscuit shot the same speed as the new model. My new B-2 biscuit equipted BowTech VFT shoots 5 1/2" full left helical feather fletched arrows the same speed as equal weight 4" straight fletched vane fletched arrows. I see no speed losses with the B-2 whisker biscuit or the well broken-in original biscuit. I have never seen or heard of a whisker biscuit freezing up on a hunt with or without the No-Snow spray on it and I have friends using the biscuit in Alaska and Canada and they haven't had it freeze on them either. What I have over the last six years using the whisker biscuit is a level of reliability and durability that I have not seen from other rests over the last thirty years.
Good luck hunting! >>>------------>
On properly tuned bows shooting the correct spine arrows the whisker biscuit shoots very quietly and loses little if any speed.
If the tiller on a bow has been adjusted in a certain manner to accomodate fletching clearance for one style or type of rest why shouldn't make sense that it could or rather should be adjusted in a fashion that accomodates the whisker biscuit?
If you can hear the arrow colliding sideways into the rest the bow is not in tune and you would expect to lose speed, accuracy, and any efficiency from a tool if its not in tune.
Most of my last dozen compound bows were used, and they all tuned with the whisker biscuit. The following is what I do to get them to shoot for me.
Read the sticker on the lower limb of the bow, it should have the correct ATA length, BH, and draw weight on it.
Measure the bow and make sure it conforms to its specifications and its cam or cams are in time.
Set the bow at an even tiller, three even turns out from the bottom on both limbs is even enough to start shooting the bow.
Use the correct spine arrows for the bow, and select the correct size biscuit for the arrow. The correct arrow to biscuit fit is a loose one not a tight one.
Install the whisker biscuit on the bow. The biscuit should be installed so that it is parallel to the bowstring, not tipped forward and not tipped backwards.
Install the nockpoint above the arrow on the bowstring so that the arrow isata 90degree angle to both the bowstring and the biscuit.
The initial windage for the rest should be set so that the arrow lines up with the stabilizer on the bow. If there is no stabilizer line the arrow up with the string and the cams.
The optimum windage setting for the rest should be established by grouptuning at different distances for the narrowest group. When the bow is stacking arrows on the same vertical line at all yardages its set right.
The nocking point can be left at the 90degree position on the bowstring.
If the bow shoots an arrow nock high or nock low, the bows tiller can be adjusted so that the bow shoots a level arrow. A nock high arrow would be corrected by tightening the lower limb bolt. A nock low arrow would be corrected by tightening the upper limb bolt.
Tuning a bow in this fashion does not require a lazer, or a ruler, or a bowsquare.And all of the adjustments can be made with a wrench.
Its been my experience that bows tuned this way will shoot broadheads and fieldpoints to the same hole.
Anyway thats how it works for me. The whisker biscuit is very quiet shooting, accurate, and it stays in tune. I have gotten upwards of 50,000 shots on an original whisker biscuit that has been on six different bows. I have just recently upgraded that particular rest to a B-2 whisker biscuit. The well worn original biscuit shot the same speed as the new model. My new B-2 biscuit equipted BowTech VFT shoots 5 1/2" full left helical feather fletched arrows the same speed as equal weight 4" straight fletched vane fletched arrows. I see no speed losses with the B-2 whisker biscuit or the well broken-in original biscuit. I have never seen or heard of a whisker biscuit freezing up on a hunt with or without the No-Snow spray on it and I have friends using the biscuit in Alaska and Canada and they haven't had it freeze on them either. What I have over the last six years using the whisker biscuit is a level of reliability and durability that I have not seen from other rests over the last thirty years.
Good luck hunting! >>>------------>
08-10-2004, 06:33 PM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 4,668
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
ORIGINAL: Len in Maryland
The WB is valued by many as somewhat of a 'no brainer' and is the reason a lot of shops like them. At least most think of it as a 'no brainer'. Does it hold the arrow in place? Yes. Does it give most a false sense of tune? Yes. Does it have an affect on fletchings? Yes. Does it slow the arrow down? Yes. Can it come out of adjustment? Yes. Can it freeze up? Yes. Will many contest these statements? Yes.
The WB is valued by many as somewhat of a 'no brainer' and is the reason a lot of shops like them. At least most think of it as a 'no brainer'. Does it hold the arrow in place? Yes. Does it give most a false sense of tune? Yes. Does it have an affect on fletchings? Yes. Does it slow the arrow down? Yes. Can it come out of adjustment? Yes. Can it freeze up? Yes. Will many contest these statements? Yes.
Just about any rest is capable of giving a false sense of tune(perhaps you see it more from the WB)
Fletch wear with the new B2 is no longer an issue.
Old WB slow speed by 2-3 fps.......B2 is same or less........Is this really a concern? Especially considering all the other accessories people have that slow a bow down much more then that and don't seem to mind.
Any rest can come out of adjustment.......again maybe it's a frequency thing your getting at.
I have never even heard of someone saying their WB froze on them.......and even if one did what rest would not have froze in the same conditions? Considering freezing I will chance a WB vs a drop away with moving parts any day.
I have no problem with your comments at all...........I will be the first to admit you probably have forgotten more about bows then I even know..........however, I just don't see why you list those things as negatives about the rest, when they can either be said about many or all other rests also or are just plain non issues.
08-10-2004, 08:41 PM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
I was tuning a BowTech Black Knight tonight. It had a G2 WB on it and the customer was using vanes. Within 10 shots one of the customer's new vanes was ripped halfway off. I got a second arrow and within 20 shots the vanes were getting rippled. Funny how that just seems to happen to me.
During the tuning process, I was getting great flight at close range and long range; but, I was getting a poor flight in the middle range. Sounds like what RobVos was experiencing.
Anyway, I got the bow tuned extremely well and the customer will be happy. He does want me to change his fletchings to feathers. I guess he's been having problems with vanes.
I have no problems with whatever the customer wants to use. I've said that time and time again. Shoot what you want and have at it. Just make sure you get the maximum tune from your rig. The animal deserves your best effort.
As far as my position on any rest or other product, it will always be critical. I'm just as critical on the Muzzy products as I am on any other rest. If you don't think so, ask some manufacturers - Muzzy included. I remember a few years ago when I was critical about a GKF rest. Everyone blasted the heck out of my comments. Guess what, that rest is hardly mentioned any more.
I've built two service oriented businesses and have always been customer oriented. If you don't want to hear my point of view, use the blocking feature and hide my responses.
Lefty26:
Just this week we installed a MZE on a High County TSS. It worked just fine. Keep in mind that the angled cable guard is utilized only a very short period of time/distance before it becomes a non-issue.
During the tuning process, I was getting great flight at close range and long range; but, I was getting a poor flight in the middle range. Sounds like what RobVos was experiencing.
Anyway, I got the bow tuned extremely well and the customer will be happy. He does want me to change his fletchings to feathers. I guess he's been having problems with vanes.
I have no problems with whatever the customer wants to use. I've said that time and time again. Shoot what you want and have at it. Just make sure you get the maximum tune from your rig. The animal deserves your best effort.
As far as my position on any rest or other product, it will always be critical. I'm just as critical on the Muzzy products as I am on any other rest. If you don't think so, ask some manufacturers - Muzzy included. I remember a few years ago when I was critical about a GKF rest. Everyone blasted the heck out of my comments. Guess what, that rest is hardly mentioned any more.
I've built two service oriented businesses and have always been customer oriented. If you don't want to hear my point of view, use the blocking feature and hide my responses.
Lefty26:
Just this week we installed a MZE on a High County TSS. It worked just fine. Keep in mind that the angled cable guard is utilized only a very short period of time/distance before it becomes a non-issue.
08-10-2004, 09:59 PM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
I've built two service oriented businesses and have always been customer oriented. If you don't want to hear my point of view, use the blocking feature and hide my responses.
No hard feelings I hope!
Whisker Biscuit , Muzzy Zero Effect , it's all good!
08-10-2004, 10:24 PM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Some thoughts on the whisker buscuit
No problem on this end. I just have problems with many who take these sorts of things to a very personal level.
I've always offered an open invitation to anyone who disagrees with some of my findings to visit, or send a second, to my shop for an indepth analysis of any discrepant subject. On the other hand, I'd delight in being able to visit other shops to discuss things. I used to visit other shops quite often, but my schedule now prevents it.
I also enjoy getting together with other Dealers at the ATA Show for my seminars. I try to extract from them as much as they want to get from me. This year I'd like to develop some 'roundtable' discussions about tuning tactics and product idiosyncrasies. Just thinking out loud.
I've always offered an open invitation to anyone who disagrees with some of my findings to visit, or send a second, to my shop for an indepth analysis of any discrepant subject. On the other hand, I'd delight in being able to visit other shops to discuss things. I used to visit other shops quite often, but my schedule now prevents it.
I also enjoy getting together with other Dealers at the ATA Show for my seminars. I try to extract from them as much as they want to get from me. This year I'd like to develop some 'roundtable' discussions about tuning tactics and product idiosyncrasies. Just thinking out loud.