A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
01-06-2002, 10:52 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
Gentle Readers, here is my latest and first for 2002 installment of JeffB's Long Comprhensive Boring Bow Reports.
However you will notice the title of this thread reads "Classic". "What on God's Green Earth is Jeff going to ramble on about now???" I'm sure you are thinking to yourselves. My classic reports will deal w/ bows I still have in my collection that are discontinued, or perhaps have fallen from the "upper echelon" of a manufacturer's line. Bows I just can't sell becuase they really are or will be classics!
On with it then!
2000 Hoyt Defiant XT2000 w/ Redline single cam system.
39 1/2" measured Axle to Axle. 6 3/4" measured brace height. 29" Redline LL (low letoff) single cam at 60% letoff w/ single track idler system.70 LB peak weight (maxes out at 74 Lbs) Mass weight: HEAVY. I have the bow setup w/ A Hoyt MicroElite F.O. Pin sight,Hoyt QuickTune 1000 direct mount restplate, Hi-Tek AccuFlite FATS stabilizer (10" 13 oz powder fill). 1 brass nocking point. 1 Eliminator button. 1 Sherz-A-Peep 2x2 Large (3/16"
peepsight, Sims Limbsavers, and Sims String Leeches (2).
The 2000 model Defiant IMO, is the last of the true Hoyt "greats". While the new bows are just as highly engineered, they don't really have that classic Hoyt forgiveness built into them. Anyone who's shot Hoyt bows for a long period of time will probably know what I mean. The Y2K Defiant is one of those bows that shoots better than you. It will throw an arrow where you want it to, or pretty durn close when you make even a fairly large mistake. There are several reasons why I think this is so. First off, is the longer axle to axle. While I have some short bows that are inherently as accurate as anything I've ever shot, a longer bow will be more stable, and resistant to shooting form mistakes than shorter designs. The riser also has very little reflex. The grip is a medium style that feels a bit weird at first, but is very easy at full draw to relax with, and is contoured so that you really cannot grip it any other way w/out noticing you are torquing the living beejesus out of it. The newer Hoyt grips (and many other makes) are just too easy to torque and not know it. Last but not least is one of the best features of the 2000 Defiant, Mass Weight: The Defiant weighs a ton simply put. Setup as above the bow feels like I'm toting a .378 Weatherby. I'm sure it's in the 7 pound range fully set-up. But boy, does that mass weight REALLY soak up the mistakes. Even w/ it's relatively low brace height, The Defiant is VERY forgiving, and one of those bows I can pick up anytime w/out having to remember any of it's quirks or whatnot to get it to drive tacks, despite it's fairly low brace. Generally I don't even have the bow setup except for the peep sight and nocking point.
I pick it up every few months, slap on a rest, sight and stabilizer, go outside drive some tacks w/it, and then put it away again.
Why, you ask, do you always put it away, Jeff? One reason only: The brace height. Not because the bow is unforgiving at that brace height,(because it's easily the most forgiving bow I've had in 3 or 4 years), but because of the weather.
Weather?
Yep...
My Bow seasons starts up here on November 1st. By this time of the year in New England it's (generally) starting to get pretty cold and the layers start going on. The Defiant (even with an armguard) ticks my bulky sleeves just a bit when I'm shooting, and occasionaly will send an arrow errant, especially w/ a broadhead. I've tried several different types of armguards, and different layer techniques, but It always ticks me a bit with the heavier clothes on. I've even shortened the draw length by 3/4" just to make sure that would not help (and it didn't). If I was hunting an earlier season, I'm sure I'd be dragging the Defiant along w/ me, as w/ ligher clothes, I don't have the problem. I can only imagine that the C Cam version (And it's corresponding lower brace height) would slap more(and I believe Len in MD had this problem w/ the C-cam Defiant). I suspect the grip angle helps to contribute to this problem, though by no means am I absolutely certain.
OK. So the bow is very forgiving, what else is so special?
Unlike last years or even compared to this years (shorter) XT2000 limbed bows, the Defiant has very little recoil and noise. Again, I'm sure this is due to the heavy mass weight soaking it all up. What thump there is certainly not objectionable, lower than most, and even w/ fairly light arrows (6 grains per LB) the bow is really, really quiet w/ a very low pitched "thunk". At one time I shot Beman ICS Hunters w/ Weight tubes in it that yielded a finished arrow weight near 520 grains,and you could hardly hear the bow go off. The smack of the arrow hitting the target is considerably louder than the Defiant, at most arow weights, and my new HavocTec is not nearly as silent. I really had forgotten how quiet the Defiant was/is. Also unlike my 2001 Vortec, my Defiant has had absolutely NO limb shift problems even though they use the same pocket design. If you had to describe the 2000 Defiant in one word it would have to be "Solid". AS I made mention i my report on the HavocTec, the XT limb bolts ARE a pain in the rear to adjust. In fact I broke one of those ball end style allen wrenches off in my top limb bolt. The whole ball end snapped and now is lodged in the limb bolt. Good thing I have had no reason to alter draw weight, or that it does not buzz when I shoot it. Someday I suppose I will get it fixed/replaced, but so far it's has not been a problem whatsoever.
The bow is also fast. Very fast. I switched out the original Redline HL (high letoff) cam on the Defiant for a 1998 model LL (LOW LETOFF) cam off my original 1998 Striker. To this day, I feel the original Redline cam design is the smoothest to draw, and by far, has the most shootable valley of any Onecam Hoyt has designed. In those old Hoyt catalogs they described the valley on the RL cams as a "definite hole". And that is what it is. You drop into it, and you just kind of sit there. No feeling of creeping forward or imminent release; very nice and relaxed. Also the ‘98 LL cam was a few FPS faster, though not quite as smooth to draw as the Redline HO cam that replaced it. The LL cam has an *effective* letoff of about 60-65% and hence has a bit more oomph. At 74 LBs w/ 29" (measured AMO) draw on the LL cam, 435 grain ACC 3/60's the bow shoots 287 FPS setup as above. I remember shooting a appx 370 grain arrow out of it at around 301 FPS. That is not shabby performance by any standard, especially considering the Defiant doesn't have the negative aspects of a typical speedbow. The HL (75%) cam version was about 6 or 7 FPS slower apples to apples on my particular Defiant. The only real negative to the older RL cams is serving wear. The original anodized camo cams were atrocious, and 99-2000 models not considerably better. However, I am shooting the orignal cable and string on my Defiant, after I'm sure a thousand to a thousand and a half shots. The cable's serving is pretty beat up, but has yet to be cut, or seperate badly. I suspect this year I'll invest in a new String and cable, but gosh, the thing shoots so damn good, I'm afraid to mess with it.
The Defiant is easily the most forgiving and accurate onecam bow I've ever had in my hands years,and the real reason I cannot bring myself to sell it or trade it in. Only because Of the string slap, have I never had it as my #1 bow for hunting. Though If I shot 3D again competitively, It most certainly would be my #1 3D bow.I urge anyone to peruse your local shops to find clearance priceouts and closeouts on this bow. I had a chance to pick up a brand new RL HO model in my draw and weight a few months back for $300. I did not, and now feel like kicking myself every time I think about it. There's not too many bows on the market that have ever made me feel that way. They are hard to find now, but worth the search.
The Defiant also, in my mind, ends an Era for Hoyt.It was the last flagship model to sport a Non-Tec riser. It was the last of the Hoyt designs that practically shoots itself. Today, the UltraTec has basically taken the Defiant's place. Make no mistake though, the UltraTec, while a very fine bow, is NO Defiant. In the market today the Defiant is considered a dinosaur. "It's too long", and "very heavy". In my book, those are necessary qualities for a truly accurate and forgiving bow design. Perhaps one day the market will shift and we will see bows like the Defiant again.
JeffB
However you will notice the title of this thread reads "Classic". "What on God's Green Earth is Jeff going to ramble on about now???" I'm sure you are thinking to yourselves. My classic reports will deal w/ bows I still have in my collection that are discontinued, or perhaps have fallen from the "upper echelon" of a manufacturer's line. Bows I just can't sell becuase they really are or will be classics!
On with it then!
2000 Hoyt Defiant XT2000 w/ Redline single cam system.
39 1/2" measured Axle to Axle. 6 3/4" measured brace height. 29" Redline LL (low letoff) single cam at 60% letoff w/ single track idler system.70 LB peak weight (maxes out at 74 Lbs) Mass weight: HEAVY. I have the bow setup w/ A Hoyt MicroElite F.O. Pin sight,Hoyt QuickTune 1000 direct mount restplate, Hi-Tek AccuFlite FATS stabilizer (10" 13 oz powder fill). 1 brass nocking point. 1 Eliminator button. 1 Sherz-A-Peep 2x2 Large (3/16"
peepsight, Sims Limbsavers, and Sims String Leeches (2).The 2000 model Defiant IMO, is the last of the true Hoyt "greats". While the new bows are just as highly engineered, they don't really have that classic Hoyt forgiveness built into them. Anyone who's shot Hoyt bows for a long period of time will probably know what I mean. The Y2K Defiant is one of those bows that shoots better than you. It will throw an arrow where you want it to, or pretty durn close when you make even a fairly large mistake. There are several reasons why I think this is so. First off, is the longer axle to axle. While I have some short bows that are inherently as accurate as anything I've ever shot, a longer bow will be more stable, and resistant to shooting form mistakes than shorter designs. The riser also has very little reflex. The grip is a medium style that feels a bit weird at first, but is very easy at full draw to relax with, and is contoured so that you really cannot grip it any other way w/out noticing you are torquing the living beejesus out of it. The newer Hoyt grips (and many other makes) are just too easy to torque and not know it. Last but not least is one of the best features of the 2000 Defiant, Mass Weight: The Defiant weighs a ton simply put. Setup as above the bow feels like I'm toting a .378 Weatherby. I'm sure it's in the 7 pound range fully set-up. But boy, does that mass weight REALLY soak up the mistakes. Even w/ it's relatively low brace height, The Defiant is VERY forgiving, and one of those bows I can pick up anytime w/out having to remember any of it's quirks or whatnot to get it to drive tacks, despite it's fairly low brace. Generally I don't even have the bow setup except for the peep sight and nocking point.
I pick it up every few months, slap on a rest, sight and stabilizer, go outside drive some tacks w/it, and then put it away again.
Why, you ask, do you always put it away, Jeff? One reason only: The brace height. Not because the bow is unforgiving at that brace height,(because it's easily the most forgiving bow I've had in 3 or 4 years), but because of the weather.
Weather?
Yep...
My Bow seasons starts up here on November 1st. By this time of the year in New England it's (generally) starting to get pretty cold and the layers start going on. The Defiant (even with an armguard) ticks my bulky sleeves just a bit when I'm shooting, and occasionaly will send an arrow errant, especially w/ a broadhead. I've tried several different types of armguards, and different layer techniques, but It always ticks me a bit with the heavier clothes on. I've even shortened the draw length by 3/4" just to make sure that would not help (and it didn't). If I was hunting an earlier season, I'm sure I'd be dragging the Defiant along w/ me, as w/ ligher clothes, I don't have the problem. I can only imagine that the C Cam version (And it's corresponding lower brace height) would slap more(and I believe Len in MD had this problem w/ the C-cam Defiant). I suspect the grip angle helps to contribute to this problem, though by no means am I absolutely certain.
OK. So the bow is very forgiving, what else is so special?
Unlike last years or even compared to this years (shorter) XT2000 limbed bows, the Defiant has very little recoil and noise. Again, I'm sure this is due to the heavy mass weight soaking it all up. What thump there is certainly not objectionable, lower than most, and even w/ fairly light arrows (6 grains per LB) the bow is really, really quiet w/ a very low pitched "thunk". At one time I shot Beman ICS Hunters w/ Weight tubes in it that yielded a finished arrow weight near 520 grains,and you could hardly hear the bow go off. The smack of the arrow hitting the target is considerably louder than the Defiant, at most arow weights, and my new HavocTec is not nearly as silent. I really had forgotten how quiet the Defiant was/is. Also unlike my 2001 Vortec, my Defiant has had absolutely NO limb shift problems even though they use the same pocket design. If you had to describe the 2000 Defiant in one word it would have to be "Solid". AS I made mention i my report on the HavocTec, the XT limb bolts ARE a pain in the rear to adjust. In fact I broke one of those ball end style allen wrenches off in my top limb bolt. The whole ball end snapped and now is lodged in the limb bolt. Good thing I have had no reason to alter draw weight, or that it does not buzz when I shoot it. Someday I suppose I will get it fixed/replaced, but so far it's has not been a problem whatsoever.
The bow is also fast. Very fast. I switched out the original Redline HL (high letoff) cam on the Defiant for a 1998 model LL (LOW LETOFF) cam off my original 1998 Striker. To this day, I feel the original Redline cam design is the smoothest to draw, and by far, has the most shootable valley of any Onecam Hoyt has designed. In those old Hoyt catalogs they described the valley on the RL cams as a "definite hole". And that is what it is. You drop into it, and you just kind of sit there. No feeling of creeping forward or imminent release; very nice and relaxed. Also the ‘98 LL cam was a few FPS faster, though not quite as smooth to draw as the Redline HO cam that replaced it. The LL cam has an *effective* letoff of about 60-65% and hence has a bit more oomph. At 74 LBs w/ 29" (measured AMO) draw on the LL cam, 435 grain ACC 3/60's the bow shoots 287 FPS setup as above. I remember shooting a appx 370 grain arrow out of it at around 301 FPS. That is not shabby performance by any standard, especially considering the Defiant doesn't have the negative aspects of a typical speedbow. The HL (75%) cam version was about 6 or 7 FPS slower apples to apples on my particular Defiant. The only real negative to the older RL cams is serving wear. The original anodized camo cams were atrocious, and 99-2000 models not considerably better. However, I am shooting the orignal cable and string on my Defiant, after I'm sure a thousand to a thousand and a half shots. The cable's serving is pretty beat up, but has yet to be cut, or seperate badly. I suspect this year I'll invest in a new String and cable, but gosh, the thing shoots so damn good, I'm afraid to mess with it.
The Defiant is easily the most forgiving and accurate onecam bow I've ever had in my hands years,and the real reason I cannot bring myself to sell it or trade it in. Only because Of the string slap, have I never had it as my #1 bow for hunting. Though If I shot 3D again competitively, It most certainly would be my #1 3D bow.I urge anyone to peruse your local shops to find clearance priceouts and closeouts on this bow. I had a chance to pick up a brand new RL HO model in my draw and weight a few months back for $300. I did not, and now feel like kicking myself every time I think about it. There's not too many bows on the market that have ever made me feel that way. They are hard to find now, but worth the search.
The Defiant also, in my mind, ends an Era for Hoyt.It was the last flagship model to sport a Non-Tec riser. It was the last of the Hoyt designs that practically shoots itself. Today, the UltraTec has basically taken the Defiant's place. Make no mistake though, the UltraTec, while a very fine bow, is NO Defiant. In the market today the Defiant is considered a dinosaur. "It's too long", and "very heavy". In my book, those are necessary qualities for a truly accurate and forgiving bow design. Perhaps one day the market will shift and we will see bows like the Defiant again.
JeffB
01-06-2002, 12:06 PM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
Jeff,
Great report!
I agree about the Defiant being "the end of an era for Hoyt".
The Superstar, original Defiant, Prostar and others up to your current and latest Defiant are probably the best designed, best built, best looking, and rugged bows ever made by any of the large big name manufacturers.
They,imo, put Hoyt's current bows to shame.
Archineer, are you listening ?
As you probably remember, I have an old 1994 Superstar and love it.
I feel, it's the most handsome compound ever made.
To me, it was Hoyt's crowning achievement. It is built like a tank and extrmely accurate.
I rank it very close to my Accu-Riser in quality and it surpasses the Accu-Riser in looks.
If Hoyt brougt it back, I would order one tomorrow!
Sag.
Edited by - Sagittarius on 01/06/2002 17:20:07
Great report!
I agree about the Defiant being "the end of an era for Hoyt".
The Superstar, original Defiant, Prostar and others up to your current and latest Defiant are probably the best designed, best built, best looking, and rugged bows ever made by any of the large big name manufacturers.
They,imo, put Hoyt's current bows to shame.
Archineer, are you listening ?
As you probably remember, I have an old 1994 Superstar and love it.
I feel, it's the most handsome compound ever made.
To me, it was Hoyt's crowning achievement. It is built like a tank and extrmely accurate.
I rank it very close to my Accu-Riser in quality and it surpasses the Accu-Riser in looks.
If Hoyt brougt it back, I would order one tomorrow!
Sag.
Edited by - Sagittarius on 01/06/2002 17:20:07
01-06-2002, 04:00 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
Sag,
Most definitely. The Superstar, Original Defiant, Prostar, Enticer, AlphaTec and Strikers, and the Y2K Defiant are the cream of the crop. I would also put the Raptor Carbonite into that mix. Same accuracy and performance, but $200 cheaper.
If ever the saying "They sure don't make em like they used to" applied,it would with those bows.
I had a SuperStar Invader ("cheap" limb) w/ Mcams, and a Superstar FastFlight w/ Flashcams. Both were extremely good shooters, and built like nothing else since. I must say though, that I preferred the more reflex of the original Defiant (not for speed, but for balance).
One of my local shops around here still has a couple of new S-stars, Super Slams, and a Defiant Legacy. Unfortunately,they all are way too long draw for me, even the Defiant has the size M3 cam. W/ the Legacy limbs I would need the M2 cam and different modules,string, cable etc. MCams and modules are hard to find these days.
JeffB
Most definitely. The Superstar, Original Defiant, Prostar, Enticer, AlphaTec and Strikers, and the Y2K Defiant are the cream of the crop. I would also put the Raptor Carbonite into that mix. Same accuracy and performance, but $200 cheaper.
If ever the saying "They sure don't make em like they used to" applied,it would with those bows.
I had a SuperStar Invader ("cheap" limb) w/ Mcams, and a Superstar FastFlight w/ Flashcams. Both were extremely good shooters, and built like nothing else since. I must say though, that I preferred the more reflex of the original Defiant (not for speed, but for balance).
One of my local shops around here still has a couple of new S-stars, Super Slams, and a Defiant Legacy. Unfortunately,they all are way too long draw for me, even the Defiant has the size M3 cam. W/ the Legacy limbs I would need the M2 cam and different modules,string, cable etc. MCams and modules are hard to find these days.
JeffB
01-06-2002, 04:39 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: woodbine KY USA
Posts: 315
RE: A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
Great report Jeff. Now you got me feeling bad. I had a chance to get a 2000 defiant once, but I went with the magnatec instead. This was the magnatec that had to built in overdraw. Man was it a pain in the A$$. I only kept it for about 3 months. The thing that kept me from buying the defiant was the brace height. I thought it would be unforgiving, but I guess I was wrong. Oh yea.....what do you think about the cybertec?
01-06-2002, 10:08 PM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 144
RE: A 2002 Bow Report? Already? It's a Classic!
JeffB
I'm pulling for you to win the lottery and go buy at least one each of every bow made and write a report on it. Good reading as usual. Keep up the good work.
I'm pulling for you to win the lottery and go buy at least one each of every bow made and write a report on it. Good reading as usual. Keep up the good work.
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