You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

http://www.bowsite.com/BOWSITE/featu...004headtohead/

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Interesting 'test' and fun to read but not inspiring.

Since Jon Silks conducted (or at least oversaw) this test I am skeptical. He has written for Petersen's Bowhunting which we all know as a magazine that has never met a bow they didn't love.

At least Silks had a few politely negative comments about some of the bows in this blind test so maybe he hasn't prostituted himself to the major bow makers like some other well known archery writers.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Looks like a decent subjective test. A couple things I don't like about the scoring. The categories are all rated as equal in importance, which is never the case. and even if the number eight rated bow was very close to the number one bow in a category, the score would not reflect it, because number eight gets almost no score even though it may be only slightly worse. The overall ending score is very misleading. I really hate speed tests and this one was no better than any of the others I've seen. They're comparing bows with a 7" brace height against bows with an 8" brace and not taking into account the more forgiving brace height, but negatively marking the slower 8" brace height bow - duh!

Another thing, is there anyone here that couldn't identify at least a few of the popular bows by their grips? I would have liked a test where throughout the whole test, no evaluator ever saw a single bow and did not know what brands were even in the test. Whether this was the case here, wasn't made clear.

Entertaining reading, but not very relevant.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Yeah, what about accuracy and 'forgiveness'? Two very important things I take into account when I'm choosing a bow, actually things I consider to be far more important than raw speed, but go unmentioned in their tests.

Of course, I reckon it'd be kinda hard to to an accuracy test while blindfolded. [8D]

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Straightarrow:
I was thinking the same thing.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I think that they could have tested accuracy by having each tester shoot groups with each bow at say 30 yards and objectively measuring or scoring the groups.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Interesting read but I still say you have to shoo tthem your self to find the best one.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

They didn't have to do all that extensive testing..............I knew my bow would win !!! [8D]:D;)

Just kiddin' !!

The Melrin Max Extreme was the biggest surprise to me.......wow.....I was kinda fired up to look at one of those !! Bet ole Pinwheel has some stuff to say about that test !! [:o]:D

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Believe what you will as it is a free country, but I strongly suggest to everyone to shoot all bows for yourself before you decide on which bow is best for you. You may be very surprised at YOUR results.;)

JMHO . Pinwheel 12

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I'm going to have to call Sugarland Archery to see if they have a MaxExtreme and some of the other bows tested in stock for me to try out. This test does show us things to be aware of and what to look for on each bow model that was tested and I feel that it was done as best as they could do.



You can't be serious. Had this test come out with your Merlins on top we wound't hear the end of it for weeks. btw, I remember you saying that all these bow mags and repuatble techs were going to be publishing tests, what ever happened to them or was this one of them that backfired?




What all 17 US dealers, that's not much to compare to.



It seemed to me that they were comparing bows that were simliar and it would be next to impossible to have every bow set up with the exact same everything including brace heights. I woud think they should just compare speeds and such to what their advertised specs are versus what they are in real life.


How many strands does Merlin use? I"m pretty sure Matthews and Hoyt uses 18 and Bowtech uses 20 but I've never heard what the rest use.

You say the testing isn't truly comparitive because of silencing gear on some of the others but no other company uses the limb laminates either so how can they be directly compared even if it was done by a testing machine? Shound't the laminates have helped it in this test?




All in all it sounds to me like sour grapes.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Ratus-

Yep, I should've figured it might cause a slam-fest if I spoke out. I went back and re-read my post and have since decided to remove 90% of it because it (much like the testing IMHO) was not done in good taste and realistically does no one any good. Therefore I would appreciate if you would remove any and all of my quotes as well. Let people believe what they want.

FYI--

Merlin uses 20 strands of 8125, not 18 as others do---there's 10 fps.
Merlin currently has more than 17 dealers in the USA and growing, plus shooters are winning regularly with them--- Rome wasn't built overnight either.[8D]

Laminated limbskins are comparable to one set of limbsavers as far as dampening goes..

Yes, staff/loyal followers try to "railroad" other manufacturers and their products every day. This is one h*llova dog-eat-dog industry-- Wake up.

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Pinwheel.......I am sincerley not trying to argue......but have a question about the speed !!

I realize that the Max Extreme has a higher brace height and more strands........the speed difference in the pack is a non issue to me !!

But a bow with your new limb technology, extra strands in the string, and a higher brace height............shouldn't it be quieter in theory......than the faster models it was compared to ???

I was suprised at where they placed the Max in the noise category , draw cycle, and kick vibration (whatever it was called) !!

I know you can't believe everything you read........but I have shot a Liberty and own an Outback and know they have similar characteristics ! I have also shot the KO32 and feel it compared to the above about how they had it pegged..........so right now......as far as I can tell based on my experience.......it's probably a fairly accurate test of what could be expected with those bows !!

Right ,Wrong ????

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Sorry, I don't know how to edit this stuff out like that.


I'm pretty sure Bowtech uses 20 strands of ts1 too so that would gain them 20 fps. if they dropped a couple strands?

If they have more than 17 US dealers they should add all of their dealers to their web site then. It's to the dealers and Merlins benifit.




If I'm not mistaken Merlins been in business since the mid 70's, which is twice as long as Matthews and 3 times that of Bowtech but I'm pretty sure Hoyts been around that long at least.


So what does Merlin gain by spending what I would believe to be more money than just putting some good ole limb savers on their bows.



How so? Bow companies probably all gave bows to this test and if Merlin didn't want the results to be posted they shouldn't have donated theirs.

The results are in, some agree, some disagree...

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

What does it really matter who won? If that test was done with a different group of people the results may not even be close to being the same. This type of test you have to take with a grain of salt.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I think this test was very relevant!! The first time I read about doing some blank bale shooting with your eyes closed, I had to try it. This was supposed to get you familar with the feel of what the shot should actually feel like with a suprise release. I went out and tried it soon after reading about it[:@] At the time, I had a Darton Maverick which I knew had a little jump and noise but the first shot with my eyes closed and concentrating on getting a suprise release by squeezing the trigger and not worrying where the shot hit,,,,, resulted in the bow flying out of my hand[:@]:eek: I didn't know THAT would happen!!! Good thing I was outside where the bow could bounce easily on the soft ground[:@] Simple as this,,, try it with your bow and make sure your bow has a soft landing if you don';t use a bow sling;)

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

One thind that I remember going back that left an impression on me was an example of shootability. I met someone used to work @ Galyan's. He shot a Carrera, but wouldn't hunt with it, after his experience with the thunderbolt. As part of training his staff he would set a bow and adjust the drawlength to each shooter, now these were folks that had never shot a bow before. By the time he'd have them sighted in they were hitting the bull. Some 20 different folks he put through this deal and the bow was just plain shootable. That bow is nothing fancy, but if you ever get a chance draw back on that and go to anchor. That bow just plain holds and with the moderate ata and brace it is extremely forgiving. That bow doesn't have the features of todays bows, but I'll bet that just about everone here can shoot that bow as well or better than the bow they're shooting now. So while I do like the way that these tests were conducted and I think what they measured are important features, especially to hunters. This issue that we talk about when we say pick what feels best to you, I think more than anything speaks to how stable the bow feels to us when we draw and is what translates to the shootability of the bow. It's just that I don't see shootability of the bow addressed by any measure. And that seems to me to be the most important thing of all.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I have shot both the Liberty and the Max Extreme. For me, the only way to shoot the Max was to buy it, so I did. I do like the way it shoots and holds. I would say the noise level was louder than I expected, but I need to try a few different rests. Louder being a relative term, it is still a quiet bow. The shock, kick, and/or vibration, whatever you want to call it, with only a simple 7" doinker hunter (old style) is nil. There is nothing.

I did not feel there was the huge discrepency between these two bows as showed up in this test, and I do think the bias towards speed exaggerated any differences. You don't buy an 8" brace height bow for speed. And no claims are made that the Omegas are a screamer set of cams. But they are shootable and comfortable to draw.

JMAC

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I'm fairly new around here, but I'm gonna throw this out here.:eek:

I don't think the test is worth the time it took for someone to do it.

We all have different ideas of whats shootable, forgiving, and accurate.

Here's my story, and I'm stickin' to it :D

I got into shooting comopunds just around 5 years ago. I went to a highly recommended shop in my area to look at bows. I wanted a Hoyt Havoc. I figured with all of the research I did on the net, that It seemed to offer what I was looking for. I show up at the shop, and talked to the guy working there. I told him what I was looking for, and he said he would order it. While he was measuring my drawlenght, and looking up the info he needed to order my bow, I picked up a Hoyt Viper 2 that was left over from the previous year. Now, keep in mind....I'd never shot a compound before, and I just started looking at a bow with a sub 6" brace height, that at a 27" draw was firing a 440 grn 2213 at 265 fps.

I ended up buying that Viper 2, and took my first deer bowhunting that fall. :)

Here's my point.....that bow was never considered to be a extremely forgiving bow to shoot. I was able to shoot lights out with it, and would still own it, but I've since switched to lefthanded. In fact, I wish I could find a bow with the same type of specs, because I honestly beleive that I found a bow that fits my body, form , and personality. We all like to be different. What works for me, won't work for someone else.

These tests may be subjective, but really aren't giving you anymore information than someone else's opinion.

By the way, I've seen some of the Merlin products. Don't by into what conclusions were drawn by an "Independant" source.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Welcome PSU! And you are correct, these bows just feel different for every person. Guess that is what makes these boards so much fun. [8D]

JMAC

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Yes :D

I won't get into all the BS, but I can say my "new" 80 pound Liberty has less recoil, vibe, and noise than any of my 70 pound bows from other manufacturers..whether it's a single, dual or hybrid. Very impresssive.

That is all

Roger

Over

Out

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Listed below are reviews done back in March. Just do a search on Merlin or -bohunt to read entire review.


Post#1 on 3-15-04
RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT

After test shooting a Merlin Max Extreme, My first word was "Unbelievable". I shot this bow (keeping my eyes closed)with no stabilizer or sting silencers, and, yes, all I could say was, "Unbelievable".

I shot this bow last week, after just recouperating from an elbow replacement. I am looking for something more forgiving and less weight than my 8 year old PSE
SLR-1000 @ 70#/28"draw. I have shot other bows but so far this bow fits everything I am looking for in a hunting bow.

I'm a hunter,I don't shoot 3D.
I shoot with an open grip and no sling. Even flinging many different size & weight arrows, the Max Extreme (@ 59#s & 28" draw) did not jump out of my hands
No recoil, No shock, No Noise ! SMOOOOTH !!!!!

What an unbelievable bow.

Post#2 on 3-20-04
RE: Shot the Outback... BOWTECH JUSTICE LIBERTY PATRIOT

I just shot the Liberty and Justice yesterday, and the Merlin Max Extreme two weeks ago. My PERSONAL view (I'm not an expert or archery tech) is all bows shot outstanding.

The Justice has a great brace height 8 but was a little two short for my liking due to my style shooting and the balance of the bow.

The Liberty has the perfect balance for my style shooting, and the brace height at 7.5 was forgiving, and with the freedom cam, it brought it all together making this an excellent bow that fits my style of shooting in any hunting situation.

The Merlin Max Exteme is the best of both, the Liberty and the Justice (in my personal opinion). Due to the forgiving brace height of 8", the smooth and level nock travel from the omega cams, with the parallel limbs, somewhat like Bowtech's,
just not carbon with a rubber skin glued on them which are on the Max Extreme.

The tough choice in purchasing either the Merlin Max Extreme or the Bowtech Liberty comes down to out-weighing the pros and cons of my PERSONAL views.

1. That being the Merlin seems to have a little less recoil and no jumping out of my hand compared to the Bowtech. Not a great difference but a difference maybe due to the Merlin weighing a few more ounces more.

2. The price of the Bowtech slightly better $668.00 compare to $699.00 for the Merlin.

3. Customer Service: Kevin at Merlin is very knowlegeable and goes the extra mile
He is an excellent person who feels and stands strongly that Merlin Bows are the best from his many years as a professional in the Archery Field.
But I have to go the extra mile as this will be the only dealer in NH. I have to travel an extra 1.5 hours.Compared to many other dealers of Bowtech who also know their product.

This is my personal review of two bows and what they have offered "me" the consumer.

I, -bohunt, have endorsed this review. Is'nt America great, allowing us to give free opinions.
But do be careful and remember: Opinions may only be worth, as what you paid for them !

The point being, and as already stated earlier in this thread by many others, it all comes down to personal opinion ( what fits you and/or feels good to you ).

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

WAAAAA:D

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Nope...hey wait a minute you mean they've got blind folks testing bows???[8D] Or are they testing blinds (or even blind people)??? Nevermind it's 5 a.m. and I'm confusing myself!

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

LOL- YOU BEAT ME TO IT!:D I guess this means when ever i go looking for another bow i should take a blind man to tell me which one i should buy! [8D] Sorry it`s my money i`m spending it on the one that i like! I think i`ll do my own testing and judging! What fits a blind man my not be my first choice in a bow? that`s his choice not mine! Bow test are done buy all kinds of diffrent methods and companys and most of the time end up with diffrent results! [&:] IF you go strickly bye these test then your setting your self up for an aurgument like two little kids saying "See they sead my bows better than yours!

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I have an Idea. GO SHOOT!

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

You mean you shoot more then just Bowtech. Wow things have changed in a few years.[8D]

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Or use a finger sling. Yeesh.:eek:

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Yeesh:eek:

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Uhm...I buy several different bows a year Dylan from various manufacturers, and yes I was on the BowTech staff, and still bought bows from various manufacturers in order to keep up with everyone else's technology while I was on that staff (and was encouraged to do so by BowTech so that I could provide comparitive feedback).

Seems to me like you've got a little peed off about this thread over on AT (which I agree was unjustified), but thats no reason to bring the vitriol over here. You didn't see me saying anything negative in this thread or the one on AT. If you wanna act like a little kid and be mad at someone, be mad at the folks who brought that thread off track over there.:eek:

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Yea:D

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

LOL, I knew somehow this would turn into a dog fight over here. I read the test results and didn't see anything worth commenting on really. I thought most of it to be BS.

Ok guys correct me if I'm wrong....

The bows that usually end up being the most vibration free and quiet, are usually the bows that are "tamed" down compared to some of the others. I mean, the Liberty and Outback aren't considered barnburners by any means. From experience with the Liberty, its just plain and simply a smooth drawing, shooting, quiet hunting bow not built for speed, but quietness and lack of vibration. That and the obvious inherent advantage the parallel limb technology.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Yea:D

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Dylan (55#recurve), you need to post more often. I'd completely forgotten about you. [8D] :(

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

After seeing these test results I've been doing a little research on bowsite.com (newbie on there) and I see they did this similar test last year too.

I was checking out some past threads over there and I found this one
http://www.bowsite.org/bowsite/tf/bg...orum=2#1257858


It appears that pinwheel12 doesn't like any testing done by the bowsite crew or the guy that runs those boards since he was called names by him.



If so when are we going to see Merlin do any kind of advertising? I mean if they're trying to gain marketshare they need to advertise, right?. Correct me if I'm wrong but other than these message boards that's the only place I see or hear anything about Merlin bows and we all know that the number of people that come to these boards are a very miniscule amount of actual hunters out there. I get numerous archery and hunting related magazines, am I missing their ads? Do they sponsor any hunting shows or message boards? I'll bet if they spent just a few dollers of thier profits to market their product they would grow at a very rapid pace, maybe even too fast. JMHO.

later, back to the bowsite[8D]:)


Toby

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Ratus-

Now Toby, don't you worry about Merlin, son, they're doing just fine--- but nice of you to be so concerned![8D][8D]

Fact is that Merlin is doing exactly what they want to do, and growing exactly at the pace they want. They put their money into their PRODUCTS instead of advertisng and BS---what a concept!! Far better than getting too big, too fast, and thus building "cheese" with loose tolerances because machinery is full bore trying to keep up with high volume of orders, things getting thrown together, drawlengths an inch too long and incorrect poundages too. Nope we don't need that.... but thanks for trying to help!![8D]

Also no need to dig up ancient history that has been long forgetten by both people who were involved either---especially simply to try and get a rise out of me---- I think you're starting to tread into areas where you need not be, and you should maybe think hard about that as the "big joke" is not a joke in reality when it directly affects someones' livlihood--- By the way, "I dunno how to edit" was pretty good too---funny that you certainly know how to quote, which is much more difficult....Hmmmm:eek: Thanks for that little dig too.

Doing more constructive things to help others and the sport instead of going around finding ways to bust Merlins' and my nads would be time much better spent IMHO.;) Pinwheel 12

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

You know I'm really sorry I posted this. The only reason I did was because based on many evaluations here of the various new offerings there was a fairly strong at least qualitative consensus that the Liberty, Outback and the Xtec were the winners this year. I think my thinking was not to discredit the testing there but to commend the evaluations that occur here. Sort of like, yeah we already knew that. I really think that when it comes to objective, unbiased technical evaluations of bows, this site remains as good as it gets. That's all I was getting at, it was more kudos to us.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

Buckfevr, don't be sorry. You are right in your thinking. Some people can see the test for what it is. Others, whose brand of choice didn't do so well, cannot. The three bows you mention will dominate sales for the 04 model year. There are allot of bows that are very good, and those will also sell well. It all comes down to what an individual likes, and what they want in a bow.

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

ORIGINAL: Pinwheel 12

Kevin,

This will be my last reply to this thread but I would like to say a few more things before I'm outta here.

Please don't talk down to me like I'm a little kid or like your superior to me, I like to try to make valid points and ask questions just like many others. I hope you wouldn't treat someone like that if they come in your shop or through your Merlin USA emails and ask the same questions or make the same comments.


I guess I don't understand a couple things. First you say they're trying hard to gain marketshare and then you say they aren't? No biggie to me but I really want to try out a MaxExtreme however I'm not sure about traveling 300 miles to my nearest dealer and I'd like to see more dealers in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

So every other company is doing it the wrong way?



Far better than getting too big, too fast, and thus building "cheese" with loose tolerances because machinery is full bore trying to keep up with high volume of orders, things getting thrown together, drawlengths an inch too long and incorrect poundages too. Nope we don't need that.... but thanks for trying to help!![8D]

Sorry, I didn't mean to rub you the wrong way if I did. The quote thing is easy as theres a bottun for it but I didn't know I could delete a post or thread?



I would tend to believe that customer service is one of the most important things when running a business.


Later, Toby

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I have been on vacation for the last couple of weeks but did have the opportunity to read the test results today. Interesting results and pretty much right on my personal experiences when considering the top few bows that I have had the opportunity to get my hands on.

Now, I better go read the rest of this thread to see why there are so many posts and views...;)

RE: You guys see this blind test @ Bowsite?
 

I thought the test was o.k but personally, I'd like to see a head to head test done by machines as well as getting human feedback especially since humans are the ones going to be shooting them.

A machine can clearly test some aspects but IMO you'll always have to add the human element and take it for what's it's worth as each and every one of us are diferent (thank god ;)) and we'll all have varying opinons and feelings...

Shoot em' all and make your own decision on YOUR findings...:)