Tuning issue
 

Hi

I've just bought a new bow last saturday and I'm trying to tune it.
I began with a bare shaft tuning to adjust my nocking point and my rest position.
The arrow flight is good with the field points (I group in 3 inches at 22 yards)
Everyting seems to be OK but I still have a problems while shooting broadheads.
The broadheads group is good also (4inch diam) but at best arround 6 inches under the field group.
It tried to lower the nocking point but the thing went worse, it is actually at 1/8 above the rest
I checked the clearance and the arrows : OK

Any suggestion?

My stuff:
Hoyt Ultramag set at 68#
Whisker biscuit B1 QS
No Peep
Easton C2 realtree 340 cut at 29''
Thunderheads 125 grains

regards

Yves.

RE: Tuning issue
 

Try marking all of your arrows to rule out the bad ones--if the same arrows are getting away from you then you need to tune the arrows if you can otherwise if it's not the same ones flying wild it's you torque the grip or not anchoring the same each time.You can try the same with field points to check which arrows consistently fly better for you.

RE: Tuning issue
 

1) ensure your arrow spine is adequate for broadheads...if you are borderline spined, broadheads often wont group but field points will. IMO, you are very close to borderline underspine if you have a 29" or longer draw length. Cam and half bows like a stiff arrow for broadheads. Try going to a 100 grain point or dropping bow weight and see what happens.

2) Invest in an arrow spinner/straightener and make sure that all your broadheads & nocks are spinning absolutely straight.

That is where I would start.:D

RE: Tuning issue
 

C'mon jeffb, i didn't give bad advice it just wasn't real good advice:(.Try what JEFFB said and if that doesn't fix it then do what i suggested--hell,i could be right?or not?Oh well,i tried[&o]

RE: Tuning issue
 

Thanks,
I will double check my arrows.
The problem is that I can't go to ligther broadheads as the minimum legal weight here is 470 grains .
I've just bought a dozen of C2/realtree 340, I hope they will work.

RE: Tuning issue
 

I worked a couple of hours this evening on the tuning of my Ultramag, the problem seems to be more complicated than expected. This time I tried paper tuning without any sucess so at the end my last solution was to switch my WB to my old QT800...and the miracle occured : perfect tear !!
The proble come apperently from the wisker biscuit, the fletching is to much disturbed to obtain a good flight
Any Idea on what to do ? perhaps burn the WB :D

RE: Tuning issue
 

HOLY CRAP BATMAN! [:-]

I can't ever remember seeing tears that big.

You should post this pic over in the WB thread

I don't know enough about the WB to give you any kind of answer why it may be doing that, but I damn sure know what rest I'd be using after seeing that pic!

RE: Tuning issue
 

I agree........holy !@#$ I have never gotten tears that bad with any rest........much less my WB's !! [:o]

Your still getting low tears and they seem to have changed from right to left .........although not as pronouced !!

Are you just eyeballing each set up ? Do you have them both set to the same center shot ? Which model WB do you have .....original,droptine, or deluxe ?

If you try the WB again ........lower it some and try going to the right a little ..........check it !! If it gets worse go to the left ! Once close.....with either rest........I'd start group tuning and then shooting broadheads !!

RE: Tuning issue
 

The model I use ise a droptine QS first generation (full black hair)
Is the blond hairred B2 better?
I'm wondering if the vanes I use are really compatible with the WB

RE: Tuning issue
 

:D:D:D:D Sorry, letub. It's an inside "WB" joke not directed at you.

RE: Tuning issue
 

letub,

One of the complaints I've heard about the wisker biscuit is that it can mask a bad tune. Some have the opinion that it shoots a good paper tear, even when out of tune. I've tuned many and have never had the problem you are seeing.

It looks like you're getting a slight low left tear from your qt800, almost opposite of the wisker biscuit. I would check to see that no vane is hitting the bottom of the biscuit, or any part of the riser after passing through.

RE: Tuning issue
 

Letub, I haven't used a droptine ........but it seems like it doesn't have any vertical adjustment ! You will probably have to move your nock point .......if your already an eigth above I wouldn't move it up much more ......but it couldn't hurt to try small increments !

I am not familiar with tuning the cam and a half ........but I would check the cam timing .......just to make sure things are working correctly !

On the droptine .......you can make your horizontal adjustments ! The WB seems to do best slightly left of center shot .......but with that kind of tear.....I wouldn't rule out adjusting the rest to the right some.....just to see !

The WB also prefers a stiff spined arrow ! Seems like you should be fine .....but you could always shoot a 100 grain tip to see how the tears look !

RE: Tuning issue
 

i am shooting droptine with b2 biscuit and just spent about 1hr paper tunning at gander mountain.i am shooting carbon express terminator hunter 60-75. nock point is just above square and center shot is good and i left with it shooting a 1/4high tail and slightly to right.the guy iwas speaking with said the wb egsagerates the the tune.so what i got was leave ther and try through paper at little farthe distance and see if sraight out. i never got tears like that even on the first shot.looks like he might also be tourqeing the bow thoses tears are terriblr

RE: Tuning issue
 

i shoot a hoyt magnatec at 65 with b2 biscuit and left mine alone at a tear 1/4 inch high and slightly to right.guy at gander mountain siad some bow will shoot bullet holes others will not. yours well will not evedintly. sorry its a great rest:D but not the one for that bow.

RE: Tuning issue
 

Considering that the paper-tear when using the QT800 is not yet as good as should be tends to show that there is a tune aspect that still needs to be corrected. I suspect a spine issue, but could be rest alignment, nock height, torque, etc. The paper-tear result when using the "WB" indicates that the arrow flight was so bad, it appears the arrow was trying to swap ends while in flight. There may have been some extreme contact between the arrow and the "WB" rest, or an extensive and uneven force was brought to bear on the shafts by the rest.

Although the paper is still not as good as it should be, just changing to a rest of different design appears to have drastically corrected the arrow's flight. Such extensive corrective result by just changing the rest design indicates that a "containment" rest may extremely compound a flight problem if the exit of the arrow from the bow is not clean.

The tear made by the QT800 indicates, that although arrow penetration would have been affected you may have still hit the kill-zone on a deer. As for the indicated flight of the arrow when shot off the "WB," especially if mounted with a "winged" broadhead, the results most likely would have been a complete miss or a badly wounded animal that may not have died, or died days later and not recovered.

Regardless of how well-tuned a "containment" rest may be, if the rest was to become slightly detuned or obstructed while in the field, or should a not-so-good release be made, is such erratic flight to be the result.

Regardless of what caused the violent flight problem, I see something that I had not previously considered. I see a potentiality of a dangerous situation. With such erratic flight, the shaft could possibly plane off course and completely miss the target. This problem would be severely compounded if the shaft was mounted with a broadhead. Therefore, I would not practice with a "containment" rest in or near a populated area and/or where there are people nearby and not behind me.

RE: Tuning issue
 

C903, You are so biased it is unreal ! That is about the most rediculous statement I have ever seen you make ........given the amount of knowlege we have with this guys bow !

Your biases are clouding your judgement ! Your assuming that both rest are set up with the same exact center shot and rest height !! You know better than that.....come on !!

I'd be willing to bet they are not set exactly the same !!

RE: Tuning issue
 

When looking at the paper tune on the GT800, I am not seeing a consistant patern. Only thing that seems somewhat consistant is that the nock point is too low. This leeds me to believe that there may be some type of form problem, or contact issue.

I would not consider this a perfect tear.

RE: Tuning issue
 

CBM SC:

"........ indicates that a "containment" rest MAY extremely compound a flight problem if the exit of the arrow from the bow is not clean.

Are you willing to say that the possibility does not not exist?

I don't care what caused such an erratic flight problem. I have had improper arrow flight off convential rests, but never as bad as shown here. The question remains; can a "containment" rest compound the problem, greater than a conventional rest?

RE: Tuning issue
 

I agree..however, the difference is marked....

Note that it went from extreme high left to slightly low and slightly left. If he didn't move his nocking point from where it was set with the Biscuit, that indeed would have me believe the WB is entirely too sensitive as the arrows were "bouncing off" the bristles as they tailed low through it...It would have had to been set at some ridiculous angle otherwise or his nock point would have to be about an inch too high (and in that case the QT would have shown the same high tear to begin with...)

I'm neither for or against the WB, but I see some wierd poopie with those things.:eek:

RE: Tuning issue
 

Whut?? Just because the tail is way low left it's not a perfect tear?[8D] Compared to the other tears he got with the WB, I'd say it's a vast improvement.[:-]

RE: Tuning issue
 

C903 ,I won't say they " don't" exist ........cause I know better !!

But I will say IME that with a WB the opposite of what your talking about usually happens ! At close ranges poor arrow flight and torque issues are corrected coming off the bow ! The WB forces the arrow to temporarily come off clean and give a perfect hole ! Typically this gives you a " false" tune instead of 5" paper tear !

I think he has something else going on !!

RE: Tuning issue
 

Second from the left of the QT800 tears looks pretty dang close to a bullet hole to me...

but what do I know, I can't see for nothin' [&o]

EDIT>.not sure...that top rip could be the vane or the point..hard to tell

RE: Tuning issue
 

That goes without saying!!![8D]

RE: Tuning issue
 

CBM SC:

"The WB forces the arrow to temporarily come off clean and give a perfect hole."

I have previously read that claim. If the "WB" rest were capable of doing such, I would tend to believe that it could only occur if the problem with the exit of the shaft is minor. However, I am wondering to what degree can the rest possibly increase a flight problem when the shaft's exit problem is not minor.

One thing I know for sure, it would be beneficial to any person using a "WB" to know what tuning or design aspect put those shafts in that flight-attitude so the user can be damn sure that they avoid the cause. When I visualize a winged broadhead on a shaft that that has planed/deviated as indicated, I shudder to think that someone might be using the rest while shooting in their backyard in a populated area.

Reminds me of the time my release fired too soon and I sent a fieldpoint mounted shaft 2 blocks away, into a residential street. Scared the hell out me and I no longer shoot in the area I used to.

RE: Tuning issue
 

Nice discussion, isn't it??

Well I spend another couple of hours this evening on the WB paper tuning....and finally burned it!:D
On the photo I have posted, I claimed a perfect tear for the QT800 but sure it wasn't,but it was much better than the WB
The best result I get with the WB is a 2 inches height tear
I have re-tuned the bow with the QT800 and now I've got THE perfect tear, I'm going to perform the broadhead tuning tomorrow, and I'm very confident.

Now the question is : what should I do with my WB??
I used it for 3D but it is not usable 'as-is' for hunting.
Will I get a real improvement if I switch from a B1 to a B2 disc?

RE: Tuning issue
 

C903, I think we're close to being on the same page ! ;)

I am with you on the broadhead tuning with that type of tear ! But I don't think it has much to do with the rest design in general !

I'm a firm believer in "what works for you" ......so Letub .....go with the QT 800 and don't look back !

What should you do with your WB ??.......get rid of it ! It obviously is not fond of your set up ! I don't think a B2 would make a bit of difference....there is something wrong here but I can't offer much more help without being there.........this is just something I have never seen out of 6 or so bows I have setup with WB rests !! Good Luck !!

RE: Tuning issue
 

Here is the bicture of the best tuning I can do on both QT800 and WB

The best I can do with the WB is a 2 inches tear, if I move the nock set either up or down, things go worse

RE: Tuning issue
 

Ok, thats better but...still shows a high nock point. If you can't get it any better, by changing nock point then...clearence issues, or undersplined. Have you used the dry powder spray to check for clearence? Check with the powder. You did...and clearence is ok then back off draw weight bit by bit to see if it is your spline. If you back off and see improvement then you will know. Then you can back off more if comfortable shooting less weight or buy new, stiffer arrows for the weight you were shooting. If none of this works then I'd burn it and take a pic! For us to see the flames!!!!! Good luck. Post back with findings.

RE: Tuning issue
 

I like Hoofers advise, except for the burning part. ;)

If you can't get it to work, give it to someone who can. In fact, you can send it to me if you'd like. I gurarantee I can get it to work perfectly, and I'll show you the bullet holes to prove it. ;)