Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Being a bow hunter ed. instructor, I was thinking about how I can "effectively" measure each person's "comfortable" draw length for my classes. So, I bought 2 Genesis bows (single cam with 0% let off - infinite draw length from 15"-30"). I have one bow set up with a 3/4" string loop, the other is set up for fingers or release (direct to the string). My idea is that if I get 2-full-length arrows, embed a graduated scale ( in 1/8 inch increments) on them, with the zero marks starting exactly on the rests, when someone, regardless of draw length, draws to their "comfortable" form, I will be able to tell them their exact comfortable DL. The question that keeps bothering me is "What about different brace heights for different bows?". The BH on the Genesis is 7". The zero mark on the arrows start 7.5" from the string. So, if someone draws the bow and the measurement on the arrow is 21", their true DL would be 28.5" (right?). BUT - If someone who has a bow (or is looking for a new bow) with a 6.5" BH draws these bows, won't the measurement that I give them be wrong? How can I set this up so it can be accurate? Do I let them know the measurement that I give them is for a bow with a 7" BH, and that to get their true DL for their bow, add the BH of their bow (or the bow they want to buy) to the measurement on the arrow to get their true draw length? [:@] Sometimes I give myself a headache [8D]. Any thoughts/suggestions are welcome!

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Measure 1 3/4 inches from the low point of the grip forward and this will be your reference point to measure AMO draw length.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Two thoughts:

One, I would suggest using the wingspan method to determine draw length instead of the method you selected as your current choice can be affected greatly by the person's shooting form, etc....

However, and second, if you use your current choice then the graduated arrow should tell you the draw length without having to factor in brace height.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Are graduated scales more accurate cause they, uhm, graduated?

:)

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

- Good one!

[quote]However, and second, if you use your current choice then the graduated arrow should tell you the draw length without having to factor in brace height.

- Even with a full-length, uncut arrow (33"), the scale starts at 0" (if started on the rest) and ends at 26". When I draw the bow (my DL is 29.5") the arrow reads 22.5". If the bow had a 5" BH, then the scale would show 24.5", right?

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

BH has nothing to do with draw length, get them to full draw, measure to the deepest part of the grip, then add 1.75 inches.

However, unless you are trained enough in form you will end up with to long a draw length on 90% of the new shooters, this is because what is initially "comfortable" will be to long.

The Genesis is a great bow for its usage model, lots of shooters, the lack of a wall or valley makes it hard to shoot for beginners to get a consistent anchor.

--Bob

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

I am confused as to what type of graduated arrow you have. The ones that we have down at the shop start at about 1 inch (to compensate for the distance between the bottom of the nock groove and the beginning of the shaft) and go up to about 34 inches. If you come to full draw and then measure to the throat of the grip (sometimes the same as rest mounting holes drilled into the riser) and then add 1.75 inches you should end up with close to your actual draw length.

I would still recommend the wingspan method though.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

I forgot how to do that-it's been a while - please refresh my memory.

After listening to you guys, I'm sure that I over-thought this whole process now[:@]. After thinking about it (again), I realized that it doesn't matter what the BH is, because a person's DL has nothing to do with the BH of a particular bow - DL is always the same. BH determines how long the string is in contact with the arrow, so a bow with 8" BH will lose the arrow 2" sooner than a bow with a 6" BH. This has nothing to do with DL of an individual, who will have the same DL regardless of the bow used.

Thanks for the tips - I'll try a variety of methods and determine which one is most accurate.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

The wingspan method is not a consistent way of determining drawlength. It is merely used to get you "close". By "close" I mean within an inch or so---there are simply too many variables in a persons' stature to rely on that method for anything other than a rough-in.

For my customers I simply run a straight line up to the shelf near the arrow rest of ANY bow they decide to use for the measurement, and mark that spot with a piece of tape, pencil mark, whatever. Then, using the same release, loop, fingers, or whatever they will be using on their new bow or the next bow they will be shooting, I take a long arrow and have them draw comfortably to anchor. Then I mark the arrow in the same exact spot as the mark on the shelf. Then they let down, and we measure from the inside of the nock where it touches the string, to the mark on the shaft, and then ADD 1.75". This is anyones' AMO drawlength when setup with their preferrred equipment no matter which bow they shoot, and that measurement will not change unless one changes releases, loops, etc, or simply decide it is either too long or short for them.

I know many people who prefer to shoot "long" based on their anchor point with different releases. My thoughts on this-- Comfort is job one---You do not want tension anywhere--- nice relaxed form is paramount to good shooting habits and accuracy. So altho sometimes my customers may in fact be "off" according to "perfect drawlength", I usually overlook that a bit if I see the person is holding very steady and they say that is where it feels good and they are comfortable. "Perfect drawlength" IMHO is as individualistic as the setups themselves, due to each individuals' stature, so at the shop I maintain a close eye on steadiness of hold and correct alignment and form, moreso than I do "perfect" drawlength. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Agreed. By the Wingspan method I should be shooting a 27.5 to 28" draw. However because I have extremely wide shoulders and somewhat short arms, shooting that short of a draw is extremely uncomfortable, and hardly accurate. Because of my shoulder width I need to get up right around 29" AMO to 29 1/4" AMO (depending on loop length) To get my release arm back and in line for proper back tension.

There are way too many variables in our individual builds for the wingspan method to be anything but a general ball park.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Exactly - that's why I wanted to try the "Genesis with measured arrow" concept - not to see what each person's "textbook" draw length was, but to measure their most comfortable and stable drawlength. If I went with what I told was my exact draw length when I first got into archery, I would be shooting a 28" DL. I shoot a 29.5" DL and a 1/2" string loop very well. It just feels better to me, therefore I am able to hold steady - and I am much more accurate!

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Pinwheel is not just right, he is absolutely and indisputably right. Any draw-length method other than measuring the length of shaft when pulled on a bow, is a rough estimate. In fact, I will go a step further. Because bow grips vary, pulls vary, anchors vary vs. draw-weight, and how a person's hand sits in the grip, I firmly advocate that a person's DL be established and mated to the/each bow that he or she will be shooting.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with anyone that promotes drawing a light draw weight recurve, long bow style bow or Mathews Genesis style compound with a graduated arrow as your preferred method for determining draw length. If that is what you are suggesting.

Though I agree that the wingspan method is not the "be-all end-all" for determining draw length it does get you relatively close. When simply drawing a graduated arrow back on a lightweight non-compound bow the archer can have the tendency to overdraw the arrow thus giving them too long of a draw length estimate. Plus, proper shooting form needs to be demonstrated or, again, the shooter can end up with either too short or too long of an estimated draw.

The way I normally go about it is to start with the wingspan method and then pull a few bows (of the model/models that the customer is considering) off of the rack with different draw length settings in/around what the wingspan method is suggesting. By doing this I believe the archer not only gets a very accurate initial estimate on draw length but also does not have to worry as much about what is on the limb label versus the actual draw length of the bow.

Considering Roseaukaine's situation by asking this question on a messageboard I think suggesting the wingspan method and then heading to a pro shop to fine tune that estimate with the bow/bows of his choice is probably the best way to go.

Just my thoughts.....

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

I think both methods have their good points, but with beginners, I tend to lean towards getting a starting point with the wingspan method. Form is usually very poor with beginners. The bow shoulder is forced towards the target. Their release arm is not in correct alignment. They tend to lean back. They also don't know what comfortable is. With every body part out of position, they have no reference to how it should feel. I think it can be good to force their body into a particular position. I like PA's method. Get close and them let them shoot a very bows with slightly different drawlengths. That said, I think both work well with the right person helping them to choose.

RE: Hmmmm? Am I right?
 

This is true - and that's why I posted the thread here, because I knew I would get the best suggestions from everyone. You guys have taught me a bunch over the past 1.5 years - just trying to find a way to effectively transfer all of this to the bowhunters in my area;).