HuntingNet.com Forums

HuntingNet.com Forums (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/)
-   Technical (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical-20/)
-   -   Could someone explain the Cam & half? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/60561-could-someone-explain-cam-half.html)

Oldguy 05-04-2004 08:38 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
I found this very interesting, so....for a novice without a
good pro shop, are you saying a hybrid would be better than a single?

JOE PA 05-04-2004 09:06 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
Maybe for all cam systems, an excellent set of string and cable(s) would be of utmost importance.;)

Not intending to hyjack the thread, but since Pinwheel states it often in threads like this one, what is the reason why a dual with a below center grip and string hookup in the center of the string would not have straight and level nock travel?

Straightarrow 05-04-2004 09:25 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 

This is why in the past few years I’ve become more tolerant of less than optimum nock travel. It’s a good thing to have for sure, but I suspect that most folks (including myself) are not getting it right out of the box even with bows that are supposed to have it.
Excellent point! The hybrid cam bow I just bought, has the lower cam out of alignment by a full inch or more, when a line is drawn to the other cam. I'm sure the nock travel is anything but straight with such poor cam alignment, but the bow still shoots okay.


for a novice without a
good pro shop, are you saying a hybrid would be better than a single?
I would say the average person would notice little if any difference in shooting performance - at least I can't. I didn't find the hybrid easier to tune (in fact it took longer then any single I've ever owned). My league scores are the same. Personally, I would not choose a bow based on this feature. I would choose based on bowshop support, ata/brace height requirements, grip, draw cycle preferences, quietness, vibration, comfort or any other aspect you prefer. Just my opinion...

Black Frog 05-04-2004 09:31 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
Here's an excerpt from an article written recently by Larry Wise on hybrid systems.

Enjoy:


It (…the hybrid cam…) has become popular for two reasons: first, it shoots really well and, second, it shoots really well. From my own personal perspective I think it aims better than anything else I’ve shot and to an aging shooter with a surgically repaired shoulder that’s a real advantage. Everyone is familiar with the twin-cam systems that have been available on compound bows since the 4-wheelers and 6-wheelers evolved to that stage. Both the top and bottom wheels are mirrored images of each other. In other words, they were symmetric to each other. Symmetric wheels will reel out equal amounts of string as the bow is drawn while both cables are reeled onto the cable track at the same rate.

An early generation of this wheel system was a non-symmetrical or “asymmetrical” system produced by Lloyd Napier. The top wheel string-track in the system has a slightly larger diameter than the string-track of the bottom wheel. In this system the top wheel would reel out more string than the bottom wheel. The cable tracks are equal in circumference. This system would allow the nocking point to reach a position that would be nearer to the arrow rest Level than a symmetrical design.

The biggest variation from the symmetrical two-wheel system is, of course, the single cam. In this system the bottom cam has three tracks which control the amount of string reeled out over the top idler pulley and how fast the cable is reeled onto the center cable track.

Rex Darlington of Darton Bows pioneered the CPS cam system back in 1996. The “asymmetrical cam” has a three-track cam on the bottom and a two-track cam on the top. The top cam “takes up” the secondary string or “control cable” and reels out the primary string at different rates. In other words, the two tracks are of different circumferences. The outer tracks of the bottom cam reel out string; the left-most track (right-handed system) reels out the primary string while the right-most track reels out the secondary string or “control cable”. The bottom cam center track reels in the one power cable and is the track most suited to the draw length module concept.

How much string reels out into the system from both ends determines where the nocking point ends up at full draw. Where it ends up affects the dynamic forces required to maintain the archer’s “aim” at full draw. Get those forces balanced properly and you can aim the bow well. Get them unbalanced and aiming is more of a challenge.

The path of the nocking point on its forward power stroke is also important. If it is oscillating up and down during its forward travel then the nock-end of the arrow is doing likewise and tight groups will be more difficult to obtain. If the nock travel path is straight or near straight and level then arrow groups should be easier to attain. This was Rex Darlington’s intent when he made his first designs and according to Norb Mullaney, “Rex is the best cam designer in the industry.”

Controlling the nock travel by using two differently shaped cams also enables you to build in a wider range of wheel timings. One wheel can be adjusted (by cable twisting) several degrees while holding the other static and little change in impact point occurs nor is there a change in grouping ability. This feature allows me to adjust the system to get a slightly different “feel” or “balance” at full draw and still have good groups.

I also like the idea of less torque on the cable guard. With only one top-end yoke cable and a three-track wheel on the bottom, less side-force is exerted on the cable guard. Only the top power-cable yoke hooks to the far-left side of the axle pulling force across the bow’s centerline to the far-right cable guard. This torque force is at its maximum at full draw and affects aiming but less so on the asymmetric cams. If you don’t believe this just try a shoot-through cable system on a twin cam bow and notice how easy it aims down the middle and how the handle reacts so stable on the release.

Much has been made of the nock-travel path over this past year and I have no intention of getting into that fray. I ask one question, what groups the best? The proof is always in the arrow groups in the target and that’s what I need to know. I want groups not theory.

ijimmy 05-04-2004 10:53 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 

I found this very interesting, so....for a novice without a
good pro shop, are you saying a hybrid would be better than a single?
In genral I would say yes to this question . I agree with most of what Jeff has said , allthough I find the hybreds [ darton merlin exc ] easyer to tune , and they stay that way , than the hoyt design .

Pinwheel 12 05-04-2004 10:54 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
"Flex-modulus" is measured by machine and the limb thus given a deflection rating, and it is true that nock travel is dependent upon consistency of each bow from bow to bow. Having said that, it is also true that when you take matched pairs of limbs that are being cut side-by-side every 2.25" from the same panel, that the deflection values will remain extremely consistent. It is only when you get into high-volume limb building through "convnetional" means and they are spit out into a bin and then painted and THEN valued that you tend to get the variations you are describing Jeff. Some companies are far better at the limb building/matching then others, I know some companies that could really care less about this issue, but I also know others who are very aware that the limb itself is one of the most critical components of any bow, and matched sets are a must for best consistency, as is consistently straight and level nock travel.

Not only does exacting limb tolerances help to keep things in synch and the nock travel consistent from one bow to the next, but it keeps the dynamic balance of the bows where it should be also, thus making them much more forgiving.

Oldguy--

Yes, I truly beleive a hybrid is better than any other cam option for not only novice archers, but for anyone. As stated, IMHO it is the next step forward. Many techs have believed this for some time now, including Norb Mullaney. I was a twin cam fan for years, but have come to realize the benefits of the hybrid system through my testing.

JoePA--

Larry is correct in his methodology---the only twins that retain straight and level nock travel comparable to hybrids are the ones with a slightly larger radius cam on top, and to my knowledge only LLoyd built them. The other twins have straight travel, but not level. Solos, are, well, solos, and only a few have relatively straight and level travel, but limbtip travel remains inconsistent on many of them.

I have shot my best groups ever at distance with the Omega (CPS-style) hybrid. And, I do not shoot like I used to-- I put in about 1/8 the time I used to practicing. I have a pretty good handle on what works well and what does not, having been around "awhile". As stated it took me awhile to come around on these hybrids, but they are, in a word, fantastic. Follow the directions and set things correctly on the timing marks, shoot your string and cables in, check it to be sure nothing moved, and enjoy your bow. Pinwheel 12

Black Frog 05-04-2004 11:03 AM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 

-the only twins that retain straight and level nock travel comparable to hybrids are the ones with a slightly larger radius cam on top, and to my knowledge only LLoyd built them.
This is what Dave Barnsdale's new modular wheels do as well. I got to play with them a bit at the Great Lakes Sectionals....

http://www.barnsdalearchery.com/tristar_thmbs.php

Pinwheel 12 05-04-2004 07:02 PM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
Black Frog-

Didn't Dave and Lloyd discuss these previously, and are they not basically the same design? I know Lloyd and Dave have had dealings over the years and especially since he basically took over the Redman bows and started calling them Barnsdale. Both of them are great guys and that merging doesn't hurt either of them. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Black Frog 05-04-2004 07:20 PM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
Don't know if Dave took over Lloyd's main idea or not- but he now uses the Wedel modules on his new wheels for draw adjustment.

Were Lloyds wheels modular? I've never seen them before....

Sharpshot_71 05-04-2004 08:35 PM

RE: Could someone explain the Cam & half?
 
I didnt take the time to read all the posts so this might already have been said but Hoyt claims taht since the cables are attached to the cams and not the axles then the cams cant get out of time, but if one cable stretches more then the other then they could couldnt they?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.