Whisker Biscuit Problem
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
Think about it some more!
Hint: Best arrow flight for the individual's setup and shooting style is not (just) obtained by correct shaft spine and bow tuning.
Hint: Best arrow flight for the individual's setup and shooting style is not (just) obtained by correct shaft spine and bow tuning.
Enlighten me please!
The WB can be used by release shooters as well as finger shooters! Someone who has terrible form and cant seem to get a bullet hole no matter how hard they try aren't going to achieve it by switching to your GKF shoot thru.
To say : "best arrow flight for the individual's setup and shooting style is not (just) obtained by correct shaft spine and bow tuning" is somewhat correct. I'd also say consistency (form) is a key role.
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
This is just like the movie "Groundhog Day."
To 1turkeykiller:
If your vanes are glued well, and you put a drop of fletching cement on the front of the vane (which most people do with all arrows), you should not have problems. However if you are not happy with the rest, then you should probably switch to another one.
To 1turkeykiller:
If your vanes are glued well, and you put a drop of fletching cement on the front of the vane (which most people do with all arrows), you should not have problems. However if you are not happy with the rest, then you should probably switch to another one.
#13
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
c903 and ewolf are like "two peas in a pod". Neither one have ever and will never use a WB, but they are the first to enlighten everyone about how poor of a rest they are!
I've been using my WB, like many many others have, for about 3 years now, and I won't go back to a TM or to a DA! I put a drop of super glue on the leading edge of my vanes and don't have a problem with any of them coming off or ripplin' shot after shot after shot.
I've been using my WB, like many many others have, for about 3 years now, and I won't go back to a TM or to a DA! I put a drop of super glue on the leading edge of my vanes and don't have a problem with any of them coming off or ripplin' shot after shot after shot.
#14
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Posts: 289
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
1turkeykiller,
I shoot feathers through the biscuit all the time without a problem. You should check to make sure that you are using the correct spine arrows for the bow, too light a spine arrow can cause excessive contact with the fletching as the arrow flexes its way through the rest. The correct arrow to biscuit fit is loose not tight, a tight fitting biscuit can be hard on fletching. The biscuit should be installed parallel to the bowstring not tipped forward or backward. Every time I install a biscuit on a bow I set the bow at an even tiller and nock the arrow at the 90degree position on the bowstring. You should grouptune to set the windage for the rest so that the arrows all fall on the same vertical line when shooting different distances. On most right-handed bows the rest will probably be about 1/8" to the outside of the centerline of the bow for the bow to shoot its narrowest groups. You should tiller tune if needed to get a level arrow in the target, this will allow you keep the arrow nocked at the 90degree position on the bowstring. Any good arrowsmith will put a drop of glue on the front and rear of each fletching, if they don't they should be horsewhipped. Good luck with your bow. Good luck hunting!
I shoot feathers through the biscuit all the time without a problem. You should check to make sure that you are using the correct spine arrows for the bow, too light a spine arrow can cause excessive contact with the fletching as the arrow flexes its way through the rest. The correct arrow to biscuit fit is loose not tight, a tight fitting biscuit can be hard on fletching. The biscuit should be installed parallel to the bowstring not tipped forward or backward. Every time I install a biscuit on a bow I set the bow at an even tiller and nock the arrow at the 90degree position on the bowstring. You should grouptune to set the windage for the rest so that the arrows all fall on the same vertical line when shooting different distances. On most right-handed bows the rest will probably be about 1/8" to the outside of the centerline of the bow for the bow to shoot its narrowest groups. You should tiller tune if needed to get a level arrow in the target, this will allow you keep the arrow nocked at the 90degree position on the bowstring. Any good arrowsmith will put a drop of glue on the front and rear of each fletching, if they don't they should be horsewhipped. Good luck with your bow. Good luck hunting!
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
I am not referring to any specific rest. I am disagreeing with the statement that
"You cannot obtain better arrow flight by switching to another rest. Arrow flight is a function of correct tuning and proper spine."
If "SA" is meaning that simply changing an accessory is not a quick cure-all if improper tuning and/or improper form is/are the real problem(s), I totally agree. However, without clarification of what is actually meant by the statement, what is alleged is oversimplified, too limiting, and is just not true.
If a person has correctly and thoroughly tuned his/her bow, and has good shooting form, it is not at all uncommon that the design and operation of a particular piece of gear (type, design, complexity, temperamental, etc,) which includes the bow, may be why he or she cannot obtain good and/or consistent arrow flight and accuracy.
As I said in another thread; "All for one and one for all" is for the Three Musketeers, not for individual bow shooters. There is a mindset with too many shooters these days, that if a particular bow and certain gear is working well for him or her, he or she believes that the same will work well for everyone, and if the other person is having problems it has to be a result of improper tuning and form. Not true!
Regarding an arrow rest; whether or not the design and function of the rest is specifically appropriate for an individual shooter is commonly determined by the individual's setup and shooting style. Many variables can come into play, singly or compounding. Here are few that come to mind... even though the person is adept at tuning, even though the bow is precisely tuned, and even though the person' shooting form is good.
1. Diameter of shaft
A small diameter shaft can cause vane/clearance clearance problems when shot off a standard "bullhorn" type rest. The small shaft diameter requires that gap between the rest prongs be very narrow so that the shaft does not fall through. Considering that the valley between the fletch/vane on a small diameter shaft will also be quite narrow, the narrow clearance between the prongs is definitely going to cause contact issues. The clearance problem is magnified when large offset or helical fletching is used, even greater when vanes are used.
2. 4 fletch or vane
Shooter using 4-fletch shafts can also have the same problems as stated under "Diameter of shaft" when using a rest that has clearance issues, and the problem cannot be totally eliminated with an adjustment, the problems as previously stated can now be even greater.
3. Straight, offset, or helical fletch/vane
Again, the type of fletch or vane used and that placement of the fletch/vane on the shaft …and the type of shaft, can dictate what type of rest is best for the shooter's setup.
4. Finger or mechanical release
There is a "shooters paradox" for most finger shooters that can dictate that a certain type of rest is best for the finger shooter. There is a vertical flex that occurs when a mechanical release is used. This action can also dictate that a particular rest is best for certain mechanical release users. I once changed shaft size and weight and consequently spent most of an entire day trying to narrow down a flight problem. I finally determined that the tension on the rest prong was too soft for the new shaft setup. I slightly increased the tension on the prongs and problem was cured. Not all rests have tension adjustments.
5. Complexity or rest vs. experience
In my opinion, the best arrow rest for a center-shot bow is one that has a SIMPLE but precise and micro-incremental vertical, horizontal, and tension adjustment, with the ability to adjust for fletch/vane clearance. For the shooter that does not yet fully understand what affects arrow flight and is not yet adept at tuning, this type of rest is easy to understand and adjust.
There are rests on the market today that are just too complex for the inexperienced shooter, and way to complex for bowhunting. If the person does yet fully understand what enables good arrow flight or cause bad arrow flight, a rest having too many sensitive but mandatory adjustments…and needing to be modified, is a disaster in the making.
6. Speed of arrow
Shafts fired from many of the fast shooting (high stored energy) bows are ultra-sensitive to forces being put upon the shaft by normal physics, by the shooter, and by certain gear.
Regardless that many choose to deny it, there is a point where the speed of an arrow has many downsides. To compensate for the "downside," full blown helical fletching/vanes is usually required to stabilize the arrow. Additionally, mechanical broadheads are almost a necessity to further compensate.
Lastly, many shooter have found that regardless of how well the bow is tuned or how good their shooting form is, they have to use a "fall away" rest to obtain the best arrow flight.
So! If the bow is well tuned and a person's shooting form is "Olympic," but he or she just cannot get the best and consistently good arrow flight when using a particular rest, should the shooter change everything to meet the requirements of the rest, or try a different rest?
"Simply changing to a better rest can improve your accuracy greatly."
Bill Winke
http://www.edersbow.com/publication/...ts/default.cfm
"1turkeykiller": I have to agree with "ewolf." Why go through hassle that is being caused by the rest. Change it! If the rest is tearing the hell out of your fletching, and you have to use some special gluing techniques to hopefully cure the problem, what does that tell you?
"You cannot obtain better arrow flight by switching to another rest. Arrow flight is a function of correct tuning and proper spine."
If "SA" is meaning that simply changing an accessory is not a quick cure-all if improper tuning and/or improper form is/are the real problem(s), I totally agree. However, without clarification of what is actually meant by the statement, what is alleged is oversimplified, too limiting, and is just not true.
If a person has correctly and thoroughly tuned his/her bow, and has good shooting form, it is not at all uncommon that the design and operation of a particular piece of gear (type, design, complexity, temperamental, etc,) which includes the bow, may be why he or she cannot obtain good and/or consistent arrow flight and accuracy.
As I said in another thread; "All for one and one for all" is for the Three Musketeers, not for individual bow shooters. There is a mindset with too many shooters these days, that if a particular bow and certain gear is working well for him or her, he or she believes that the same will work well for everyone, and if the other person is having problems it has to be a result of improper tuning and form. Not true!
Regarding an arrow rest; whether or not the design and function of the rest is specifically appropriate for an individual shooter is commonly determined by the individual's setup and shooting style. Many variables can come into play, singly or compounding. Here are few that come to mind... even though the person is adept at tuning, even though the bow is precisely tuned, and even though the person' shooting form is good.
1. Diameter of shaft
A small diameter shaft can cause vane/clearance clearance problems when shot off a standard "bullhorn" type rest. The small shaft diameter requires that gap between the rest prongs be very narrow so that the shaft does not fall through. Considering that the valley between the fletch/vane on a small diameter shaft will also be quite narrow, the narrow clearance between the prongs is definitely going to cause contact issues. The clearance problem is magnified when large offset or helical fletching is used, even greater when vanes are used.
2. 4 fletch or vane
Shooter using 4-fletch shafts can also have the same problems as stated under "Diameter of shaft" when using a rest that has clearance issues, and the problem cannot be totally eliminated with an adjustment, the problems as previously stated can now be even greater.
3. Straight, offset, or helical fletch/vane
Again, the type of fletch or vane used and that placement of the fletch/vane on the shaft …and the type of shaft, can dictate what type of rest is best for the shooter's setup.
4. Finger or mechanical release
There is a "shooters paradox" for most finger shooters that can dictate that a certain type of rest is best for the finger shooter. There is a vertical flex that occurs when a mechanical release is used. This action can also dictate that a particular rest is best for certain mechanical release users. I once changed shaft size and weight and consequently spent most of an entire day trying to narrow down a flight problem. I finally determined that the tension on the rest prong was too soft for the new shaft setup. I slightly increased the tension on the prongs and problem was cured. Not all rests have tension adjustments.
5. Complexity or rest vs. experience
In my opinion, the best arrow rest for a center-shot bow is one that has a SIMPLE but precise and micro-incremental vertical, horizontal, and tension adjustment, with the ability to adjust for fletch/vane clearance. For the shooter that does not yet fully understand what affects arrow flight and is not yet adept at tuning, this type of rest is easy to understand and adjust.
There are rests on the market today that are just too complex for the inexperienced shooter, and way to complex for bowhunting. If the person does yet fully understand what enables good arrow flight or cause bad arrow flight, a rest having too many sensitive but mandatory adjustments…and needing to be modified, is a disaster in the making.
6. Speed of arrow
Shafts fired from many of the fast shooting (high stored energy) bows are ultra-sensitive to forces being put upon the shaft by normal physics, by the shooter, and by certain gear.
Regardless that many choose to deny it, there is a point where the speed of an arrow has many downsides. To compensate for the "downside," full blown helical fletching/vanes is usually required to stabilize the arrow. Additionally, mechanical broadheads are almost a necessity to further compensate.
Lastly, many shooter have found that regardless of how well the bow is tuned or how good their shooting form is, they have to use a "fall away" rest to obtain the best arrow flight.
So! If the bow is well tuned and a person's shooting form is "Olympic," but he or she just cannot get the best and consistently good arrow flight when using a particular rest, should the shooter change everything to meet the requirements of the rest, or try a different rest?
"Simply changing to a better rest can improve your accuracy greatly."
Bill Winke
http://www.edersbow.com/publication/...ts/default.cfm
"1turkeykiller": I have to agree with "ewolf." Why go through hassle that is being caused by the rest. Change it! If the rest is tearing the hell out of your fletching, and you have to use some special gluing techniques to hopefully cure the problem, what does that tell you?
#18
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 881
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
I have not shot one. Funny though that i have 3 buddys that shot them, switched to drop aways and there shooting improved greatly, one finished 2nd in an IBO tournament last season. Funny how he went from shooting a 320 in the first triple crown, then threw that Piece of sh!t away and shot a 415 and won. How many top IBO shooters shot one? All of them right? Why do people worry about fletch clearance? But, if you like to shot your bow upside down that is the best rest out there.
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tunkhannock, PA USA
Posts: 171
RE: Whisker Biscuit Problem
I had a NAP drop away until I drew back and let fly on a big doe and the arrow went 3 feet in front of her! Found out days later after shooting my bow that the DA was broke and was coming back to far on the draw.
Switched to a WB and i like it much better with no problems on fletching, hunting, shooting etc. LOVE IT!!! I will never shoot another DA after that experience.
Switched to a WB and i like it much better with no problems on fletching, hunting, shooting etc. LOVE IT!!! I will never shoot another DA after that experience.