Thanks for adding more data to help shut down the 'carbon arrows are either straight or broken' myth.

The difference between the carbons and the aluminums is... An arrow straightener will put the aluminums' straightness back to factory spec, or better, in a matter of minutes. The carbons stay bent.

I've had major problems keeping 2117's straight, much moreso than other sizes. The most durable, bend resistant aluminums I've shot have been 2216, 2315, 2317 and 2419. Not real high on the popularity charts for 3D, but they're darn impressive when it comes to toughness, consistency, accuracy and longevity. Not to mention penetration in real life hunting situations.

If it weren't for the target butt frames at the range, welded up out of angle iron, and my penchant for long range practice with longbows and recurves, I'd lose far more arrows than I'd destroy. But those metal frames... It doesn't matter whether the arrow is made of aluminum or carbon, when it hits a frame, it's destroyed.

Oddly enough, wood arrows often survive hits on those frames.

If speed is no concern, buy one of the aluminum sizes Arthur referenced.

If speed is a concern, buy ACCs. If price is a concern, buy a 1/2 dozen

You Rang?

:Makes Extravagant Entrance:



Fun discussion as always.

Range pretty much summed up my feelings but I think it needs some clarification.

Straightness by all means IS important. If you want to shoot anything past 30 yards (be it targets or game), or especially with broadheads (at any range AFAIC). However the majority of Carbon Arrow manufacturers overemphasize the selling point of straightness. Straightness without spine consistency is worthless. After all, I can grab a brand new 2312, a 2314, and a 2317 and have them all very straight, but they won’t group together.

CONSISTENCY in straightness is the key. A moderate straightness shaft (.003, TIR of .006) is just fine and dandy with me as long as all arrows in the dozen match well for spine and weight too.

The thing that sucks is that most carbons DO NOT MEET their advertised tolerances. Even the advertised .001 shafts (I have a dozen all-carbons right now that have a few that won’t, even when cut). The problem is with shaft runout at the ends. If the middle 26” of the shaft is .001 , that’s great, but if you cannot cut out those bad ends that are.010 or greater, your nock end will be wobbly or your point end will be wobbly. You can get away with a wobbly point end if your nock end is straight and you are shooting field points or small mechs. But try and get fixed blade broadheads to group together. Wobbly nocks are bad period. The arrow NEVER gets a straight send-off. For those who remember the days of uni—bushing-less aluminums, what did everyone always preach when tuning problems occurred?

“Make sure your nocks are on straight! If not, cut them off, clean up the taper and glue on a new one.”

That Mantra was chanted over and over and over.

Problem with carbons is, you can’t really do that. Unless you have extra shaft length to spare so you can cut the bad end off. Ask ArthurP, I’m sure he could B&M about it for several paragraphs

I’ve found that most mid-grade carbons avg. anywhere from 3-6” of “bad” ends total. I.e. that needs to be cut off. Most shafting on the market is 30-32” long. Thus MANY people are gonna have some wobble to one degree or another unless they have a very short draw or use an overdraw. Compounding the problem is that some manufacturers only rate straightness over 28” and some are real wishy-washy over what measurement they use (i.e. over X” or TIR? Talk to two different people at the company and you’ll get four different answers)

Then consider the “pro-shop” factor. 90% of guys who walk into a bow shop, say “I’ll take a dozen X carbons” have them cut, the shop puts the inserts in with super-glue without even bothering to get them in straight, and off they go. Many of these arrows are pre-fletched from the factory or distributor. The manufacturer didn’t try and find the straight end for the nock. Most shops who fletch their own, don’t either. In fact, I’d guess 99% of ‘em don’t . (Not knocking the shops, just telling it like it is.)

With alum ,straightness (initially) it’s not a concern. With A/C/Cs it’s very rare concern because 90% of them come in way under spec for TIR, and I’ve yet to see a brand new one out of hundreds that went over spec. I’m sure a few get out there, but it’s extremely rare. By nature of the A/C construction (Alum core which is straightened, then pultruded carbon layers on top vs. a “weave”), it is much easier to get a straight shaft out of the gate than with an all-carbon or carbon-composite shaft. The straightness is designed into the shaft, not sorted through to find.

Carbon arrows CAN and DO bend.

I did an interesting informal shaft memory test several weeks back using some Beman, CX, Goldtip, and Easton all carbon & carbon composite shafts. Carbon composite shafts (fiber composite, not alum) had the worst shaft memory in general and several of them, took a permanent set. However I COULD get them bent back to excellent straightness if I fooled with them long enough and found the exact right spot to work on. 100% carbon shafts recovered from the bending before I even got them on the roller 99% of the time..some straightened up right before my very eyes as I spun them.

I would post the detailed email I sent to some of my online friends and the folks @ BowTech, however I don’t think it would make it through HBBS’ naughty word filter

Suffice to say I can take certain brand/type of construction shafts, bend them a reasonable amount (not too dissimilar to what kind of abuse they would go through on a hard impact or being hit by another arrow) at each end and have them so bent they won’t roll at all (they flip off the spinner).

On a positive note it may be quite possible that for these same shafts, an arrow straightener may very well be able to work on them, thus getting straighter shafts, and/or greater longevity. I haven’t tried it myself, but I would like to try.

Of course there are other key factors that the carbon manufacturers rarely talk about that are extremely important as well…e.g. Inside diameter/wall thickness tolerances are VERY critical to get components in straight. A shaft that has uniform ID/wall thickness tolerances oddly enough (:rollseyes will have more uniform spine (especially SAS or spine around shaft) and weight as well. Then there is (lack of) weight & spine tolerances from dozen to dozen to dozen.

Spine, weight, and straightness are ALL very important. But if you do not have the first , the second two will matter little in the grand scheme of things. All 3 qualities are desirable, especially for longer distances, precision target shooting, AND most important I suspect for members of this board: shooting fixed blade heads.

With all the money folks spend on bowhunting, I cannot fathom why so many skimp on one of if not THE most important thing: the delivery system for their broadhead. They will buy a $700 bow, $100 arrow rest, $100 sight, $75 stabilizer, $50 worth of titanium broadheads, and then buy a dozen crooked arrows for $ 60. I'cve been guilty of it myself. I see "new & improved" and I give 'em a try, and I end up disgusted and spending more money for better shafts.

:shrug:

So, THAT's where you've been, typing this post out...

Good to see you back in action, hope it can continue...

Really, Jeff. Just a suggestion for the next time you make an extravagant entrance... The sequinned jumpsuit is not required. [:-]

Good to hear from you again!

I've played with using a straightener and hair dryer on carbons, trying to straighten them out. My theory is that since the carbon fibers are suspended in a thermoset resin (carbon arrows are about 60% glue), then heating the resin should allow me to straighten the arrow. Unfortunately, I cannot say my experiments have been entirely successful.

And I do have some concern whether heat straightening carbons is a good idea even if it did work. It could be weakening the arrow and making it unsafe to shoot.

One of the conclusions I have arrived at. I would not leave carbon arrows in a hot car on a hot, sunny day, especially where they could wind up being in direct sunlight.

Well said JeffB. I always try to say this but somehow the brain can't function while the fingers are a typin.. As you said, all three factors are important, but spine consistency comes first.

Jeff, great post, I learned a lot.

Heat + carbons = BAD NEWS

I'd like to know some more please. I shoot a lot, 60 to 100 arrows a day. I've been shooting for about three months now and have improved considerable since the beginning. I bought a PSE Stingray, with PSE periferals, and purchased 2 dozen Blackhawk Vapor A/C/C 3490, 28". I use a 125 grain point. My bow is now set at 65#, my draw length is 27 1/2". and I use a Scott release off a loop.

I was starting to group quite well at 20 yards, 5 to 10 arrows in a 4" circle and I shoot in the high 200s to low 300s in our 3D tournaments (40) lanes. Now it seems that I'm lucky to get 2 arrows to park next to each other. I don't even know what target panic is.

Several of my arrows now are kinda wandering away from the target, on several others I have noticed a flat spot right at the front of my fletching. Several have just been broken after an errant beginners shot. I'm down to less than a dozen arrows with 4 in reserve for hunting. I'm looking to get these same arrows but they do cost some.

Have I shot the spine out of them? Is the spine a repairable thing or a dispose of thing? I am pleased with the Vapors but I'm hearing other arrows are out there for less dollars. (I paid 90$ a doz set up). Am I shooting too much?

Did I say Vapor ACC - Well I meant A/C/A sorry my bad.

The only way you could be shooting too much is if fatigue had your shooting form in knots and you couldn't hit the target by the end of the session. If you shot a field archery round, 60 to 100 arrows wouldn't get you through the course. It takes 112 arrows for a full 28 target round. Nothing like those namby pamby girlyboy 3D shooters who can only manage 30-40 arrows a day. [8D]

If you selected arrows that are right on the verge of being underspined for your bow, they will begin showing spine issues very quickly. My opinion is, if you're within 5 pounds of the maximum spine range for one size arrow, it's best to go to the next size up. I haven't looked at the chart to see if that's what's going on with your setup. I know PABowhnter had some issues with the Blackhawk Vapors. Maybe he can chime in with his experiences.

Frankly, if I were going to spend $90 on arrows, I'd throw another 20 spot on the pile and go with ACC's instead.