Arthur P

As does the tiniest bit of torque or less than perfect release technique. Paper tuning is just as much a test for torque and form flaws as it is for bow tune. drthunder says, "...i aint been shooting to long." That immediately disqualifies paper tuning for this situation, IMO, because shooting form is still probably pretty iffy.

I had a bow once that shot perfect bullet holes with the nockset a full inch UNDER square. The guy at the shop did me a 'favor' and paper tuned the bow before I picked it up. I about had a cat when I saw the setup, arrow poking upwards at an idiotic angle when loaded on the rest. The arrow was nocked so low that the bottom vane was leaving tracks on the arrow rest between the prongs. He talked me into shooting it like that thru paper and, I'll be durned, it DID shoot perfect bullet holes. According to paper tuning true believers, that bow would be perfectly tuned simply because it tore a perfect hole.

I took the bow home, adjusted the tiller properly and actually tuned the bow.

I've also had single cam bows that had a sweet spot where they'd tune a perfect bullethole way to the inside of centershot.

Don't tell me about how wonderful paper tuning is. Too easy to get false results and, if your form is the slightest bit off, it's impossible to get good results.

mrfritz44

From what range was it shooting the bullet holes?

Arthur P

3, 5 and 10 yards.

mrfritz44

I ask because alot of my paper tuning confusion came while trying to achieve bullet holes from over what Easton recommends in their tuning guide. I tried bare shaft, out to 15 yards, and the only way that seemed to pay dividends for me was with a fletched arrow from a range of 4 feet or less. This gave me an image of the posture of the arrow at the moment of release before any effects from oscillation could take over.

How did the bow group for you with the low nocking point?

Arthur P

LOL! I never even tried shooting it for groups like that. I knew it was wrong, knew exactly what was wrong and took the bow straight home to fix it. After shooting compounds for 20 years in competition, in just about every style they've got a class for, and hunting with them a good 5 years before getting into tournament shooting, you learn a few things about setting them up and tuning them.

Experience is still the best teacher.

mrfritz44

The only thing I'm fuzzy about from my own experience and the imperfect form that goes with it is, how do you disqualify paper tuning for someone with form issues? Wouldn't these issues be magnified at range (with group tuning) and if so, how could you analyze a group and what needed to be done given the flyers that would result from the form issue?

Don't take this as a challenge to your ideology on bow tuning. I'm just trying pick your brain on why you think paper doesn't work and how you'd go about zeroing in on those nock and rest settings for someone you were helping who wasn't consistent with their form.

My first impression is that you need great form to group tune accurately. Whadda ya think?

Arthur P

Of course you need great form to group tune accurately, mrfritz. That's a given. Key word there is 'accurately.' If you're a championship level shooter and really want to get it down to dead nuts, the further you can shoot decent groups the better, like 90 yards. Not everyone possesses that kind of skill. However, you certainly can group tune to a point that is totally within your shooting skills. My limit for shooting fairly tight groups is 60 yards. For a newbie, it might only between 10 and 20 yards. The tune won't be nearly as precise as someone that group tunes out to 70 - 80 yards. But it will be within his skill level.

Say his arrows group in the dot at 10 yards, but the center of the 20 yard group is 6" to the side. He makes the adjustment to bring the 20 yard group over to center. Then adjust the sight to put the 10 yard group in the center again and repeat the process until the sights put both groups in the middle at both distances. It's a lot easier than trying to read paper tears and, since the method is based on accuracy, it's going to reinforce his confidence. When his groups open up to the point he can't make heads or tails out of things, then he knows it's time to give up for the day. As he progresses, he can extend his distance to improve the accuracy of his tune.

On the other hand, you have to have at least decent shooting form to shoot those bullet holes in a sheet of paper. For instance, a series of tears that go in every which direction, at random, without making any adjustments at all. How and what do you adjust to take care of that? That kind of thing can be caused just by uneven hand pressure on the grip, from one shot to the next. The shooter is baffled, doesn't know what to do and the exercise causes doubt and frustration, both with his gear and himself.

Not to mention that there is a level of skill involved in learning how to read those tears and knowing which direction to move what in order to correct them.

Paper tuning is a tool. All it does is give you a flash image of what attitude the arrow had at the particular moment in time it went through that paper. Nothing more. With marginal shooting form, it will not tell you why the arrow was flying like that, what to do to correct it or where that arrow will hit the target. Where the arrow will hit on the target is far more important for new shooters than knowing whether the arrow left the bow slightly nock low, left.

I'm not at all discounting the importance of good launch attitude for the arrow, because good arrow flight is critical. I'm just saying, as long as the arrow isn't visibly wobbling and porpoising, it's less important than placement FOR NOW.

When it comes time to fit broadheads on those arrows, or when the skill level hits the point where the shooter has hit a plateau and bow tune will make the difference for a major step forward, THEN we can start worrying about fine tuning that arrow flight. And even there, I consider group tuning to be the final word in fine tuning.

The only time I ever paper tune is when I'm trying to ferret out a particularly nasty tuning problem. Last time was about 4 years ago.

One tip, no matter what form of tuning you prefer. NEVER make any adjustments until you've got at least 3 arrows that do the same, exact thing. One arrow could be a mistake. Two arrows could be a fluke. Three arrows in a row, that's a trend.

mrfritz44

Thanks for the clarification on that Arthur. It sounds like we agree on alot more than I had originally thought in terms of what to do when and how. At first it sounded to me like you had totally discounted paper as a tuning tool. The original audience played into that no doubt. I've gone through alot of that paper frustration you talk about and at the same feel like it put me on to a set up that's better than I've ever had. Of course, that took alot of trial and error and knowing when to discount tears based on how the shot and follow through felt.

You still there drthunder? Sorry for hijacking your post.....[&:]

Arthur P

No, I don't totally discount it as a tuning tool, but neither do I accept it as the final word in bow tuning, like so many others do. It's no secret that I'm not a big fan of paper tuning. IMO, it's an intermediate step in the process. It's definitely a step I usually skip, but I do use it from time to time.

drthunder

hey thanks took you guys advice an done alittle group tuning and since i havent been shoting very long i worked on my form a little also . hitting real good. and getting 1 an 2 inch groups at 15 ,25 ,35. hell im realing enjoying this now. was always used to shooting a bow that didnt fit to well an i guess it made for bad form along with not working with sights much. thanks again.