Pinwheel 12

SA-

Duly noted and you are entitled to you opinion of course. I personally have found the "new wave" of "instant learning" on the net to be of benefit only if one is gaining good info, and new shooters simply do not know enough about the sport to be able to recognize good info from bad. I regularly get newer guys/gals in the shop who are all balled up with their setups who say "well this is what everyone told me to do on the net", when in fact he/she was receiving poor info. I see this all of the time to be honest, and so do other reputable techs.

Now, don't get me wrong here, there is MUCH good info available on this board and others--- however most of us who have been around for awhile can pretty much tell who's who in the zoo and who we should listen to and who we should not, but newer shooters cannot discern this and are much better off IMHO to learn the basics from someone who DEFINATELY has the technical skills to teach them the correct way to setup and shoot. This is a very very important aspect to teach people the correct way from the get-go, otherwise they learn incorrectly with poor shooting habits ingrained into them from the start and it then takes much longer to work it out later on. IF they have no outlet, then I can see this as a lesser alternative, but as previously posted and explained here I strongly suggest that all newer shooters gain hands-on coaching and initial setup by certified instructors to make their shooting much more pleasurable and to send them down the path of correct drawlength, poundage, and form. This will enhance not only their accuracy but their overall confidence as well, and they will be much more apt to stick with the sport as opposed to trying a million different things on their own, getting frustrated, and bailing in a short period of time. JMHO Pinwheel 12

silentassassin

Pinwheel,

I agree with what you are saying. However, I started shooting when I was 12. I didn't have anybody to show me form or how to tune or anything else. I bowhunted 6 or 7 years before I ever new anyone that bowhunted (orther than crossbow). So my only option was to get in there and learn it on my own. I did so to varying to degrees of success but I always got the job done. I have still yet to ever find or hear of a coach in my area (including Memphis). Also, I have never been to a shop with a "pro" behind the counter. Some of the guys could do the basic tuning and do the other work but I have never been to a shop where someone could or was even qualified to help someone with their form (and I went looking). So everything that I have ever learned about the form aspect has been through trial and error, bulletin boards, and some books on the subjects. The book that I liked the best and felt like I learned the most from was Idiot Proof Archery. With out these alternatives I would have gone on thinking that I was doing it the right way. Which I still may not be, but I am a lot closer than I use to be and my form as become much more repeatable. If someone is going to get frustrated and give up they are going to regardless, it's just in their nature. I struggled through every problem imaginable without any help for many years and I never gave up the sport and I still thirst for knowledge to this day. I don't know what is available in the area where this youngman lives, but if it's anything like the area that I live in, bulleting boards and books may be his only alternative. I am glad their are "techs" like you and Len that are there to help your customers. This thread would have been another good chance to pass on some of your knowledge rather than criticizing guys for trying to help. For the a good deal of us there is no such resource and we have to try to find knowledge where ever we can. While I don't doubt that you see individuals that have been led astray by the internet. I would have to say all in all there is a very knowledgeable group of people on these boards. It may take some time to filter through who you should or shouldn't listen to but the knowledge is out there. In most cases I found the knowledgeable among these boards to be much more knowledgeable than 99% of the archers that I have ever met in person. So, I would have to say that your odds of getting good advice are much better here than from Joe Smoe off the street and better than ANY of the "Pro" Shops that I have ever been to. We're not pros, we are just trying to help the best we know how. Why don't you critique the young man's form and possibly help the young man and some of us that are less knowledgeable, learn from your experience?


dwd2001,

If you have the option to get the help of a coach, then do so. If not, take the advice of the people on this board and try to sort through the opinions and try to find out what works for you. Also, try to find some books on the subject.

walks with a gimp

Well, here's my view on the matter of "reputable techs" and "pro shop advise" . Those that are trully masters of teaching archery form and set up will not be seen on an archery internet forum giving free advise. WE WILL, not because we feel that we're quailified to turn a newbe into an IBO threat overnight but because we want to share our findings. There is no way we can tell how a certain form "feels" to someone when they try our suggestions, that's up to them. Some here have given very valuable suggestions and are happy to do so. When some feel that they are ready for the next level, that's when they should start paying. How many people even compete at the local level in target or 3D probably would suprise many of us (probably not many compete).
Thanks to those who are willing to share what they have, there are millions of archers that have improved their enjoyment in archery and time behind the dinner table with venison on the platter

walks with a gimp

Judging by the pic, I'd say that that draw length is about 1/2 to 1 inch too long and it looks like you're reaching a long ways for the trigger on that release. Have you tried a wrist strap release? You can adjust the strap on a wrist strap release to get the trigger into the second joint of your trigger finger for a bit better feel and maybe help induce a back tension release method of shooting the trigger. Small adjustments go a long way to change the feel of your draw. Try a different release, the glove style releases can induce torque to the string/face if they are gripped tight at full draw. A wrist strap can be completely let go of with the hand at full draw, allowing the release head to line up with the anchor point of the release pivot on the strap.

Pinwheel 12

SA-

I do not doubt what you are saying in your case is true, and there are probably many other areas in the USA that have the same problem. The question we need to ask is, WHY are there so many areas in the USA that are lacking for Pro-shops and knowledgeable techs/instructors? Simply due to the fact that everyone THINKS that they can learn everything on their own by reading or speaking on the boards, that's why. There are significantly less Pro-Shops today than there were even 5 years ago and even less techs who will spend both the the time and money to attend seminars and schools to learn in-depth tuning techniques, as well as attending schools learning how to teach these techniques to others.

I am not critizing everyone or even anyone here, rather merely trying to point out that if everyone continues with this type of approach rather than supporting their Pro-shops and those who can teach them correctly, (and to point out also that if more people are taught correctly it will eliminate these "bad" shops who are BS-ing you and you hate because they will be instantly recognizable) it won't be long before there will be none of these good shops left anywhere. The larger Pro-shops are in fact dwindling almost daily, simply because it is getting increasingly harder for them to compete with smaller shops or internet dealers with lesser or no overhead. Those that remain have to rely on their knowledge base and customer service alone, the rest disappear---that in a nutshell is why you have none in your area. I don't know about other reputable shops but we are always busy, and it's not because we can compete with Wal-Mart or Cabelas or are making a fortune. Retail Archery sales is a tough business to be in, especially nowadays. But it gets tougher and tougher for Pro-shops without your support.

Books and messageboards can help, no question, but I must say again that nothing beats hands-on help and instruction from a certified instructor when first starting out. I don't mind at all helping people on the boards when I can to a point, but when it gets too technically detailed it is not in my best interest to simply give you all of the answers just so you all can have them---to do so effectively cuts my own throat along with those others who do this for a living. I do think I have more than done my share to contribute to this messageboard system and others over the years, but I also see what those contributions from myself and others are doing to the industry throughout the USA--- and even tho it may be for a good cause I now feel that such knowledge would be better shared when someone supports a shop or instructional school. Otherwise as stated the TRUE Pro-shops will soon be gone, and I feel they play a very important part in the Archery industry and need to be there for the sport to remain strong for future generations. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

ijimmy

I'll second Pinwheel , have someone who knows archery and has been in it for more than a few years look at your form , and advise . The pictures you have posted dont tell the whole story .The first one you posted looked like you were short on draw, and the last looks too long , if you did not change something on the bow itsself , its something the members of this board are not going to pick up on thru the pictures you post alone .

walks with a gimp

Geezz Pin!! Which side of the fence are you on? I read " Pro shops having a hard time competeing with the smaller shops and internet dealers"[] Don't you have an internet archery business?? I read also "cutting my own throat" Are you selling bows online at a discount that other pro shops could be selling to their local clients?? I read that your also unwilling to give out imformation that you believe you could be paid for[:@] Why don't you just want to help others just for the satisfaction that you might just put a smile on someone's face for the day????
This statement you made that there are just too many things wrong with this young man's form is sure not going to encourage his self confidence, which is 95% of archery!!
Pro shops are dying because there isn't enough money in it for many to justify the work and expense, therefore you have people selling out of their basement to keep overhead down enough to "make it worth while"[&:] The enemy is in the mirror.

silentassassin

Pinwheel,

I see your point and respect your opinion. But, again what your are professing is not an option for me nor has it ever been. It's not even a matter of the internet or shops going out of business. In the 18 years that I have been in archery there has been one quality shop in NE Arkansas, SE Missouri, and Memphis. I lived in Memphis and traveled back and forth extensively, to the area that I now live, until a few years back when I moved here. In that time there was one true Pro shop in this 150 mile radius. That gentlemen went out of business about 8 years ago because he didn't want to quit is other job and he didn't have time to hunt etc. He was one of those truely gifted individuals that was a bow magician. It just all made sense to him and he was very technically proficient with his shooting form etc. To be perfectly honest the guy never worked on my equipment but I have been told by literally hundreds of people how good of a coach and mechanic he was and I have seen all the trophies that he has won. That guy was stuck up there in BFA where only the locals could utilize his talent while the rest of us suffered. In the mean time I have been in every shop in this area that has ever been open and while some of them have been good people there has never been a truely knowledgeable tech in any of them. Maybe archery just isn't big enough in our area to justify those that truely are experts making it their career. But I can tell that it's not a matter of good shops closing in my area because there has never been one here (that includes Memphis and surrounding area). Again, if you feel like you are hurting yourself, I don't blame you for not sharing the info. However, I think you should give consideration to the fact that archery and archery shops and true "techs" may not be as common in other areas of the country as they are in the area that you live. I have never been to a shop that I would trust to give me advice on shooting form. It's just the sad truth. So while your advice is the best advice for your part of the country, it's useless in my part of the country, because the written word is the best advice you're gonna get in this part of the country.


The five most asked questions by the majority of the bowhunting populace in my area after overhearing the conversation two archers in the airport on their way home from Vegas.

1. What's any archery coach? Why do you need one of them?

2. What's a shot round. (I have only talked to a small handful of guys in my area that have ever even heard of spots or spot tournaments)

3. 3D- Isn't that some kind of movie? (We actually have a couple of small 3D tournaments)

4. A what kind of league?

5. What the hell is a back tension release?

I try to support my shops in anyway that I can. I even "cheerlead" for the good ones because I want to keep them around for everyones conveinence and to support my community. But, when you call a shop to see how busy they are, and you have a buddy that you have talked into driving the 90 miles to try this shop, and the ***** at the shop gives you a hard time no matter what angle you go at it from. I don't think so! Here I am trying to recruit them some business and the **** is busting my ***** because I asked what is normally the slowest part of the day. I don't think so! That's when I'll excercise my right to tell them to kiss my *** and just buy at Bass Pro. I have since found another shop that I will drive 20 miles and pay a little more for things just because the tech is pretty good and the customer service is good.

Double Creek

I'll back up Silent on the pro shops, we just don't have them around. I've been bowhunting for 10+years and I have never seen a "pro" shop. Sure, we have people who sale archery gear, but they usually have some high school or college student behind the counter doing the so called "tuning" and etc. I've learned MUCH more from this board than I ever have at a "pro" shop.

Pinwheel 12

WWAG-

Sheesh, anything to bust my chops, huh??

I own an internet business because I have to supplement my business to compete and stay afloat. I didn't start internet trade and I am not the enemy--- I am NOT a basement bandit, I have a physical shop with paid staff and inventory. I go to seminars, shows, and occasional refresher schools every year. I am doing what I can to survive, just like everyone else. I do not discount the bows or accessories, they are the same bows I sell through my physical storefront, for the same money plus shipping. Do not confuse me with those who have no overhead and give bows away for $10 over cost out of their livingroom---I can also assure you I know exactly which side of the fence I stand on.[:@] I help many people every day, some pay for their help, some don't, but they get wait they came for and altho no-one can please everybody, most usually return later down the road. That tells me they are at least satisfied.

SA--

Understand your position totally, and it's unfortunate. I sincerely wish that things could be different for you.[]

DC-

That also is unfortunate. Hopefully we can eventually find ways to change it all before it is too late.[] Good shooting, Pinwheel 12