Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Ok...it's me again with the "explain it to me like a 4 year old" question.

Arrows. I see the charts and even they say it's only a guide. There are so many out there and I honestly have some questions about the numbers they're throwing out.

2314- the 23 is actual diameter and the 14 is wall thickness??

There is also a "Spine" # 365, 390, 342...what is THAT?
Stiffer is higher or lower or what? I would think that stiffer would be heavier in GPI, but the Easton chart doesn't follow that.

And now for the grand finale...how do you pick the "perfect arrow" for your setup without buying 73 dozen varieties and finding 2 that fit your rig better than the others?

I'm looking for something that'll cover the indoor spots (which I am not serious about...I still shoot my little MM there) 3d in the summer and still hold up to a shoulder blade come October. Am I dreaming here?

I've shot 2512's, CSX 400, Blackhawk Vapor...and trashed them all rather quickly except the CSX's that shoot like pooh through my setup for some reason. Should I look at the 2315's and just suck up the extra weight?

Thanks for sifting through my confusion guys...

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Jeff B and some of the other arrow gurus will be a lot more help than me on this one but i'll do what I can. You are correct on the shaft diameter and the wall thickness with the 2314. The numbering on carbon arrows varies by company, Gold Tip, the higher the number the stiffer the arrow. Easton the higher the number the less stiff or less spine. If you are looking for the perfect arrow I would suggest an ACC from easton or a Beman Matrix. With the composite arrows you get the straitness of aluminum with some of the carbon durability. They are not cheap but IMO worth the extra money. My pro shop keeps arrows of every kind that they sell fletched so you can shoot them all if you like. Gives you a chance to see what works best out of your bow before you buy. I shoot a BK II and my bow is always above where the charts recommend for spine. I think that most of the arrow charts don't apply to todays agressive cams and more efficient bows.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Trueshot, what's your draw weight and draw length??

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

The spine numbers refer to their deflection. There is a specific test procedure where an arrow is placed on two pivot points and a very specific amount of weight is applied to the middle of the shaft to see how much it bends. The amount that it bends is the deflection rating for that shaft.

Stiffer is lower.

Stiffness does not really have anything to do with actual arrow weight. The wall thickness in relation to the diameter of the shaft dictates spine in large part. For example, if you see a large number in the first two digits of the Easton aluminum rating system and a small number in the second two digits then that normally is a stiff arrow for any given setup....when comparing it to an arrow that might have a smaller number for the first two digits and a larger one for the last two. Examples of this might be a 2413 or a 2117. With a setup that might suggest both of those shafts the 2413 will be a stiffer spine than the 2117 when all else is equal.

Hope that did not confuse you more.

Most of the Easton charts I have seen will recommend at least 3 or 4 different arrow sizes for any given setup combination....each normally with a different spine rating. However, normally one or two of those 3 or 4 choices will be darker in print which means that those are the most commonly used sizes for that specific bow arrow setup combination. If you usually stick with those then you won't go wrong in picking the correct setup.

One word of advice though...if you are going with a perimeter weighted style or similar single cam or a hard dual cam then always opt for the stiffer spine out of the recommended choices.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

So, forvive me for being too critical, but they update the charts every year...why wouldn't they compensate for the cam technology??

Wwag, 28.5-29 draw with a 27.75 arrow @ 70lbs

[quote][Hope that did not confuse you more.
/quote]

No Frank, I think I get it.

I mean I loved the way the 2512's shot, but if I hit a gnat in flight on the way down they'd bend and I'm pretty hard on equipment anyway.

So an arrow with thinner overall diameter but thicker walls will actually be less stiff or have less spine...but it would be more durable??

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

In addition to Frank's discussion about aluminum arrows... Wall thickness has some effect on stiffness, but it's major effect is weight. Shaft diameter has some effect on weight, but it has more effect on stiffness. The thicker the walls, the heavier the shaft. The larger the diameter, the stiffer the shaft. Two shafts the same diameter, the thicker walls are stiffer. Anyway, that's why a 2512 is a much stiffer arrow than a 2018, but the 2018 is a good bit heavier. And a 2219 is a stiffer, heavier arrow than a 2213.

Thin walls are easily dinged and cracked, and they can fold up like an accordian. Smaller diameters are easy to bend. Thicker walls are heavier but more durable. Larger diameters are more resistant to bending. Go up to a 2419 and those bad boys are darn near indestructable!

I generally shoot 2315's out of my bows because they're a good compromise between weight and durability. I won't go less than .015" wall thickness on an arrow when I want decent durability.

My main rule of thumb for carbon... If the chart shows me within 5 pounds of the upper end of the scale for my setup, I ALWAYS go to the next stiffest spine. If the arrow has a reputation for being softer spined than they're marked, I bump up if I'm within 10 pounds. It works for me.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

I am confused about arrows myself! Being new to the sport what is the proper arrow length if your say a 27in draw, do you addan inch or what? Can you give me a general rule shooting a regular rest.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Most folks cut their arrows so that the point of the arrow is 1/2 - 3/4" past the rest at full draw.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Hey Thanks guys.
It is so cool that this site is around where I know I can get reliable info and the answer to damn near ay question I have about archery at a mouse click. Man I love it here!:D

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Trushot

You can go to www.eastonarchery.com and download an arrow selection chart that will get you much closer than most in print.They ask specific questions on exact arrow length and weight and give you the best selection for you.


There are some really good 3-d arrows that will crossover to hunting.The ACC is probably the best but the new Axis might prove to be good ones also.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Kelly, what the deflection numbers mean is how much they deflect over a 28" span with a 1.94# (I think) weight hung from them in the middle. A 340 spine deflects .340", a 400 deflects .400", and so on.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

My advise first is to get away from aluminum arrows if say your shooting a lot .watch a slow motion video .carbon arrows will take a beating and keep there straightness ,i miss 3D targets on ocausion and where an aluminum arrow would be totaled out a carbon ,will shoot the the rest of my targets .As for hunting I have seen cxl select 150 with 125 grain broadhead .bowtech pro 38 295 fps 65 lbs bast through a shoulder blade . A 250 cxl would of been a better arrow but was not my bow so.
I don't play around to much if it works .I think some shooters get to suffisticated in there set up .It sounds like the 400 cxl is way to much spine for u unless you have your bow set 85 lbs and want to take down an elephant .Try the 200 Select carbon express 250 ,150 .
My bow is 57 lbs
Arrow lengh 26 3/4,250 cxl select 80 grain speed points .3D set up
Hunting GT 3555 75 grain heads .

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

I hate to single you out Robinhood as I do tend to agree with you to a certain extent but there are alot of folks who would disagree with this statement....forcefully. ;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

PA
hi guy ,ya i'm sure some OLD guys would disagree cause they may not want to make the change.But hunting and 3D are to different games .aluminums will probaly never leave the shelf .But i like seeing my 75 grain broad head go 260 fps plus rather than 200.I just see aluminums get destroyed in the 3D woods when a carbon i'm confident to shoot it at the next target or even a deer ,in which i video taped a friend that missed a buck clean and later that evening that same arrow drilled a doe.Carbon.
I do like the price of Metal thou.LOL
We are all intitled to or own wrong opinion ,thats what makes these message boards so fun .Plus i can meet new friends ,and get more info myself.
I was esatent to shoot carbon,and always shot easton 2117's.If i did shoot aluminums those are what i would look for.;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Robinhood, you mean the 'old guys' that have been doing this for a lot of years and have a buttload of experience to back up their likes and dislikes? ;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Yup, that about sums it up[:o]:D:D

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

I get no freakin' respect...[X(]:)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Does it hurt if it's a tad longer, say cuz of clearance problems due to broadhead width?

PT Hunter

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

It doesn't hurt to have excess arrow hanging out there if you need it for clearance and your arrows fly true. In fact, some people fine tune their arrow's spine by varying their arrow length until they get it just right.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Yep ,definetely some buttload of experience here.:D

I allways start with em a little long and cut em down as necessary.Cheaper than buyin 3 dozen arrows.

CB

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

I can't believe it,Arthur didn't lay into Robinhood on the carbon issue.[:o]

What's wrong Arthur,under the weather.;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Nah, I'm just in a generous mood today.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

T fox,
Thanks, I've had it for a while but wanted to get the specifics on all the numbers. I didn't know where they get them so they didn't mean squat to me.

Phil, that helps a ton and puts it into terms I can understand:D I sent your toy back today btw...thanks again.;)

So as of now I'm shooting a 28 1/4" arrow 100gr head geared for 70 lbs (even though I'm backed down a bit for indoor) and looking at the 340 epics or the 2315's as "The old guys" suggest!:D Big difference in weights (396 or 513 finished acording to the charts)I know, I'll shoot them at the shop and see what the bow and the chrony says to me. I don't mind losing the speed if the effeciency and sound gap make up for it enough.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Yeah me too. I am in shock.

Ok, I gotta say it. Sure, carbons tend to be more durable than aluminums in many situations...but what good does it do if they aren't perfectly straight to begin with?

There, that was for you Arthur....:D

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Well done, Frank. But you know... I'dve added a few frills and blessings into the mix, especially about inconsistencies in carbon arrows' spine, weight and inside diameters. ;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Hi arthur
Thankx for not bashing me for my opinion.Cause i do this at the pro shop to but its usaully about bows LOL.Carbons when bought are straight or there not .Ive seen in one dozen 6 hold a group and the others are off slightly.what i do is number each arrow to find out which ones are more consistant than the other.I do shoot IBO competitively so i sight in a couple(arrows) to get me threw the course.As for hunting i do the same thing .The ones that group get tipped with broadheads the rest sit in my bow case.
I don't know your age ,but i do get most reliable info from two close friends that are in mid 60's .They also custom make my strings and cable.They also have been national staff shooters for High Country,Storm archery,And now Bowtech.I have respect for those who have forgotten more than i will ever learn.....LOL I just prefer Carbon and i can see you understand .;)

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Trushot
2315 is a great shaft, and I'm sure that would work fine for you. When you go...try and shoot some 2216's as well, if you can. I've shot them @28" from 65 to 70lbs for years. I shoot a 125gr broadhead, so they would be a little stiffer for you as well. They are probably a little tougher than the 2315's overall since they have the thicker wall. IMO 2216's are probably the most versatile alum shaft there is. I've seen them work well in so many different setups. Just a thought.

Art, you going soft on us;)

Robinhood,
I've shot 3 deer with the same Aluminum arrow (and even the same broadhead:D) and it's actually still in my quiver. Just because your friend did it with carbons, doesn't mean it can't be done with aluminums. I will agree though, thin walled aluminums are fragile. Thick walled....thats a different story. [&:]

yep;);):D

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Carbons are more durable, please.Lets get over this .I shoot 3D, the same metal arrow shot time after time hitting foam is bound to lose it straightness. .I shoot up to 300 or more arrows a week from now till deer season.I can't afford to buy or shoot metal arrows in to foam which will in do time ruin a metal arrow. If i miss a target and hit a tree the aluminum is DONE!!!!! I've seen it time and time again.I'm not saying that a carbon won't blow up crack break.But if stuck in a tree the most ican lose is the field tip and insert.I see 1000"s of shooters each year bowhunters,and competitive shooters.The majority shoot carbon.


Confused and frustrated must of had a taste of aliminum.
GO CARBONS

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

robinhood11x:
Oh, Arthur is much older than that, or at least sounds like it.;):D:D

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

NO I AIN'T! I just feel like it. :)

Yes. That's why I have an arrow straightener. They have to be really wrecked to be to bad to straighten right back to factory tolerances, or better. Overall, aluminum is still a way better choice for my shooting than carbons are. Their straightness and consistency far overrides the bending issue... which I feel is way overblown.

At the prices some of the better carbons are going for, I'd rather just pony up a few bucks more and get ACC's, so I could get the best of both worlds.

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

AP,

How are those Terminators holding up?

RE: Arrow Confusion and frustration
 

Jeff, I'm down to three. Broke the one I told you about and lost another. Got one hit by another arrow on a crossing shot the other day and it got some of the camo finish kocked off of it. It's still in good shape otherwise, still shootable.

Interesting thing tho... Under the finish, they look like an old fashioned fiberglass arrow. Maybe they just use glass for the outer wrap with carbon innards. I need to be careful to exclude Terminators when I'm talking about carbons. ;)