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New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I happened to stumble across a pic of the new vanes from NAP over on AT, very interesting idea.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
You don't have a better picture from an angle do you? That way we could really see those things!!
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
sorry that is all I found over at the archery talk forum,I'm a feather man myself but these have peaked my interest. Guys have said that they are ust a fuz heavier than the standard vane.:(
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Interesting. I hope to see more of them as well when the opportunity permits. Anything to increase accuracy with my setup...:)
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Amazingly simple concept. I'm surprised someone didn't think of it before. Looks like it would work well.
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The demo NAP had up was really cool. Piqued my interest for sure. Weights are just under 30 grains for three 4" vanes according to the fellow we spoke with.
Price is outrageous honestly. Dealer cost for a 100 PK is as much as what my shop sells a 100 pack of 4" feathers for.[:'(] |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I'm having a hard time featuring how this thing works in a fletching jig clamp. Does the little lip at the back smush down when you stick the vane in your clamp so it can grab the whole vane? Or do you have to build up the clamp with tape or something to hold the vane where the clamp won't close down on it?
I've been wierded out about this vane ever since I first heard of the idea.:eek: |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
The little lip is very small and I know my Bitz jigs have a slight taper on them and I don't see much issue w/ them working in most normal jigs.
The demo they had setup at the NAP booth was a full helical feather vs this vane w/ the same helical. This vane was spinning 2-3 times as fast as the feather. They said that the vane fletched straight would still spin a bit faster than a helical feather and alot more than a helical vane. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
LOL! I went and took a hard look at my clamp. You know that you can look at something a million times and never notice details? I never noticed the clamp on my Bitz has that gap at the back end.
Well, if the vane works as advertised, then that's great. It's about time the guys that are forced to use straight fletch for clearance got something that will actually stabilize their arrows. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I had a gread discussion about the new vanes, and fletching as in general at the ATA show. These new vanes will be costly but if they preform as exspected they will greatly improve arrow flight with broadheads for most people. Now of course I do need to try them first but they do look promising.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
For the guys who have some of these vanes to try out, what kind of resin are these vanes made out of? In the pic the look like they MIGHT (you can only tell so much from a picture) be made out of the same stuff that AAE vanes are. I'd also be interested in how durable these vanes are. It looks like the fin might be the 'weak link' - is it easy to rip the fins off the vane?
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Why on earth would you want to put a heavier fletch on that is designed to slow your arrow down???
Is everyone really having that many problems getting stable arrow flight? Seems like a solution looking for a problem to me. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Seems like a solution looking for a problem to me. Mechanical broadheads are the current solution for unstable arrow flight. Their problem is inconsistent performance. If these vanes give the stability to reduce the number of mechanical heads out there in the woods, then I am all for them! |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I love feathers myself , switching this year from 4" to 5" madea HUGE diferance . For you guys and gals who like vanes as much as I like feathers , I guess this will be something to try , switching from 4" vanes to 5" i presume would have similar results at a lower cost . Now to the drawback , thy say your groups tend to open up farter down range with more drag at the rear of the arrow . I have not noticed this much myself as I genraly shoot only out to 40 yards , but this maybe something to consider .
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
The little lip looked to be as pliable as the vane.. and not easily torn off. The vanes were pretty pliable. These vanes can be fletched completely straight and still have have just as much spin as a helical vane/feather. The more you offset them.. the more they spin (duh!)... Therefor these vanes would eliminated fletching contact problems that people have using full helical setups. Might even make drop aways obsolete, ect.. People using wisker biscuit style rests would have several of their issues eliminated also. I see lots of benefits to these w/ very few draw backs. I can't wait to give them a try.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
KBacon:
That is interesting that you should mention that using them with a Whisker Biscuit would solve problems. I looked at the design, and wondered if I would be able to use them at all with the Biscuit. If they are made of softer material, like AAE Plastifletch Elite, then the Biscuit wil give then a set of "ruffles" in short order. LOL;) I thought the new Speedflytes were kind of expensive for vanes, and don't really care for having to rough up the base of each one before fletching them. They do hold up to "Biscuit abuse" pretty well, though.;) |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Joe.. you may be right... but I was just listing possible problems that these vanes might remedy. Won't know for sure till they start shipping them.
I find it funny that companies are coming out w/ stiffer vanes for use w/ the biscuit... My dad has a huge box of like a 1000 old bohning vanes that are about as stiff as you can get. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
That is an incredibly simple concept. For those of you wondering, I'm pretty sure that by having the grooves on one side and smooth on the other side will give a change in air pressure on opposite sides of the fletch...much like that of a wing on an airplane. Air resistance will theoretically be less on the grooved side decreaseing pressure which will allow the small weight on the tip to fold the vane over giving it a natural helical, which in turn will twist the arrow.
I'm not sure on that...but another explanation would be that the decrease in air pressure will force the vane to 'fall' continuosly along a path of lower pressure...With each vane falling continuosly, they will bring the arrow into a twist which will aid in momentum causing it to eventually turn faster and faster and faster. So theoretically, the farther the arrow twists at an exponential rate, faster and tighter at longer distances...not a constant twist. You guys let me know what you think of my explanation. I'm really interested to hear comments. Thanks. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Do you guys think they'll be noisy ?
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I do admit I have this mental image of the arrow sounding like an ah-ooga horn as it's zipping downrange. :)
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I do admit I have this mental image of the arrow sounding like an ah-ooga horn as it's zipping downrange. Also - have you ever seen a slow mo of a regular plastic fletch being shot[:o] I can imagine the contortions this one will go thru:) |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
They had them on a mechanical display at a speed supposed to simulate arrow flight (it was kind of like a wind tunnel effect). They were no noisier than the full helical fletched feathers spinning next to it, and it was spinning MUCH faster than the feather equipped arrow.
They are soft like an AAE or Duravane, so durability will probably be about the same. [:'(] I'll try 'em. But I think the price point will be highly detrimental to their sales numbers. Guys aren't going to spend 40 bucks for a 100 pack. And GV, you are pretty much on target according to what the NAP engineer was telling me. :) |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Hi Guys,
The vanes actually weigh 11.5 grains each so the total weight as compared to a standard plastifletch is about 10 grains heavier. The spinning machine at the show had air flow equal to about 40 MPH or 58 FPS. So it was about 1/5 normal arrow speeds of 260 FPS. The RPM readout we used for the display would increase at higher rates of air flow. The Micro-Grooves we use on one side do two things. First they create a difference in air pressure side to side which creates spin. Second they provide rigidity which prevents the vane from flopping wildly in the air stream. The rigidity helps to stabilize (prevent flapping) the vanes almost immediately out of the bow. This effect allows the kicker at the back end to function more effectively as spin increases. The kicker is molded secondarily after the base. The profile is such that the vane can be used in any standard fletching jig or automatic fletching machine. The durability is similar to other such plastic products. In a speed decay test the 20 yard speed of the QuikSpin vane was 246 FPS, while a plastifletch was 247 FPS and 4 inch helical feather was also 247 FPS. Down range precision is increased as a function of being able to stabilize the arrow almost immediately out of the bow and maintaining aerodynamic stability due to spin. Basically it is the same idea a gun manufacture uses when making a highly rifled barrel for target shooting. (I guess one could say it is kind of like rifling for your bow). The ability to stabilize a standard broadhead is also increased. Noise is about the same to the human ear as a standard plastifletch. We do not have all this information on our website yet, so I thought I'd add a bit to the discussion. If you have any more questions please feel free to call New Archery Products at 800-323-1279. on a personal note...I think you will all be pleasantly surprised at what these things will do! Cary Pickands - NAP Technical Services Specialist |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Cary,
Thanks for the info! Sounds very intriguing. The Axis ST and these sound like the perfect combo. Of course, if the price is what is previously mentioned, not many people will be shooting the same spot for groups!!![:o][:o][:o]:D |
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Cary, thanks for stepping out of the shadows and giving us the scoop. I wish more manufacturers would do this.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
And just what was wrong with my explanation there rangeball?:D;)
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Not a thing, apparently... :)
I just got the distinct feel that Cary is 'on the inside"... :) |
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Yeah, I got that feeling too...When I read what he wrote on how the vane functions I had a constant grin...I couldn't believe I was so near the ball park with my explanation just from looking at it.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
cpickands-
Are these meant to be straight fletched for optimum results? Or do you still put a slight offset to them on the shaft? |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
They can be fletched just like any other vane... you'll get more spin than a conventional vane no matter how you fletch it. But the more helical.. the more spin you'll get .
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Have they correlated performance, like say "straight fletch rotation with these equals 5* helical with standard vanes"?
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
I would suspect that the way you offset or helical (left or right) might make a difference in the spin. If it is designed to spin clockwise with a straight fletch and your offset gives a counter clockwise spin....they would counteract themselves. Or (just thinking) if they are offset too much....the air flow might be interupted too much for the vane to work as its intended. If that is the case, your paying for something you're not using. Anyone else. Still, I think it might have possabilities.
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RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Hi guys,
Following the post I thought I'd provide a couple more answers. First, perfectly straight on the shaft, the QuikSpin spins about equal to or slightly greater than a 5 inch helical feather wrapped at a 3 to 4 degree helical. At about 1 degree offset (or 1/16th inch over the 4 inch vane length) the QuikSpin will approach 3000 rpm or about twice as fast as a 5 inch helical feather. The spin is intentionally to the right. As a broadhead manufacturer, we promote right spin for a very sound reason. Mainly right spin tightens the arrow against the broadhead upon impact. One of the biggest tech questions we receive comes from the northeast region of the USA where many shops fletch with a left offset. People email or call that they lost blades on Thunderheads. We in turn ask: 1. Do you shoot left offset? 2. Do you completely tighten your broadheads or do you line up the blades of the Thunderhead with the vanes of the arrow by backing off on the o-ring? Most people answer yes to both questions. We then explain that left offset with a broadhead that is not completely tightened is a recipe for disaster. Basically the arrow loosens against the broadhead so the blades are then stripped. With the spin intentionally to the right, we recommend either straight, offset right or right helical. Shoot Straight, Shoot Often, Cary Pickands - NAP |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Hi guys, Following the post I thought I'd provide a couple more answers. First, perfectly straight on the shaft, the QuikSpin spins about equal to or slightly greater than a 5 inch helical feather wrapped at a 3 to 4 degree helical. at about 1 degree offset (or 1/16th inch over the 4 inch vane length) the QuikSpin will approach 3000 rpm or about twice as fast as a 5 inch helical feather. |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
First, perfectly straight on the shaft, the QuikSpin spins about equal to or slightly greater than a 5 inch helical feather wrapped at a 3 to 4 degree helical. At about 1 degree offset (or 1/16th inch over the 4 inch vane length) the QuikSpin will approach 3000 rpm or about twice as fast as a 5 inch helical feather. I'm wondering at what distances that data was obtained at? Or is that a set-velocity wind tunnel environment? I'm curious as whether or not the spin acceleration is greater on these new vanes compared to feathers. In that I mean that after 20yds from launch, are these new vanes ALREADY spinning faster than feathers, or does it take some more time and distance for these new vanes to come up to spin-speed and surpass that of helical feathers? thanks for the input on the forum!! :) |
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Cary,
Thank you much for coming over here and giving us the scoop. I cannot remember if you were the person I spoke with at the ATA show ( a couple of us BowTech goofs came by Wed. afternoon as you were setting up and a gentleman at your booth gave us a mini-seminar), but I'm extremely impressed with everything I've seen and heard so far here and at the show. It sounds like these vanes in a full right helical will be just the ticket for high speed fixed blade broadhead flight. Hmm...Thunderhead 85's at 300 FPS plus out of a Dual Cam Patriot. Sounds like fun to me! [:-] |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Black frog, I'd imagine that those tests were done in a windtunnel type tester. To try to shed light on the other question, I would have to say that the farther the arrow travels...the faster it will spin. With these vanes, the air pressure itself is decreased on the groove side allowing the vane to fall into that low pressure space, this is a continuous motion with the vanes falling continuously into the low pressure area. The faster the arrow spins the lower the pressure and subsequently the faster the vanes fall.
Now think about feathers will full helical...When an arrow leaves the bow with feathers, the accelerated force probably bends the feathers over backwards, they then have to catch up with the arrow and cause lots of drag before they actually spin the arrow. This causes massive speed loss. These vanes work on totally different principles than feathers. The vanes when fletched straight, don't spin the arrow by creating drag in a helix motion, but by actually streamlining the air in a cleaner fasion on one side of the vane, thus you'll have a faster arrow downrange that is also spinning faster. More accurate with fixed heads, and much more energy to break through those rib bones. cpickands, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just explaining on what I feel the physics are behind this vanes operation. I'm really gonna love shooting with these things. |
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I'd love to have access to a wind tunnel, however, I don't. Tests have occurred over a 5 year period in our modest test range at NAP.
The first tests were designed simply to show us the number of rotations that occur over 20 yards. The process was simple. We marked 1 yard increments with tape on the floor. We then placed a shooting machine at each mark down the range and shot a group of arrows with a specific vane/feather configuration. The cock vane position resulting at the target was recorded on a data sheet. The data sheets actually had 1 inch circles marked off like the face of a clock so the visual position was easily marked. An average for the group was taken and standard deviations were calculated. The neat thing about this type of test is that we could very quickly see the comparisons from vane type to vane type. Another cool thing we could do is incorporate a chronograph set up at the target for each recording distance. Knowing the speed at the target from each distance also allow us to calculate RPM's and determine speed decay. We then determined with a rather detailed and complex series of tests that to stabilize a broadhead at about 260 FPS the arrow needs to turn about 1 rotation over 3 yards. Our previously recorded data was then able to provide even more information, and in this case, very useable information. We looked at each data set and found the range at which each fletching type produced 1 full turn. A standard 4 inch vane (AAE, Duravane, Bohning, Etc.) with a 1/16th inch offset reaches 1 full rotation between 12 to 15 yards. A 5 inch helical feather with a 3 to 4 degree wrap reaches 1 full rotation in between 4 and 7 yards. A QuikSpin 4 inch perfectly straight reaches 1 full rotation between 4 and 7 yards. A QuikSpin 4 inch with a 1/16th inch offset reaches 1 full rotation between 1 and 4 yards. So in answer to Black Frog's question, the QuikSpins accelerate at the same rate when perfectly straight on the shaft as a helical feather and at a faster rate when offset on the shaft. This data helped explain why historically, feathers are consistently better fletchings in stabilizing broadheads. The data also gave us a hint of how well the QuikSpin vanes could perform with broadheads. As a side note for anyone interested, degrees of offset are measured as follows: Inverse Tangent of the offset distance (in inches)/the length of the vane in inches. An example follows 1/16 = 0.0625 Inv Tan of 0.0625 = 3.5763 3.5763/4inches = 0.894 degrees or approximately 1 degree. We can then demonstrate that a 2 inch vane at the same 1/16th offset 3.5763/2 = 1.788 or approximately 2 degrees. I am providing this information mainly because most people do not know how to measure offset and there is much myth surrounding it in the industry. Most of the data was compiled in a 20 yard range. The RPM information was compared linearly at 10 and 20 yards. The 3000 RPM measurement occurs at 20 yards. We find that the increase in rate of the rotational vector is greatest as the arrow leaves the bow. Once the arrow begins to rotate 5 turns in 3 yards, the rotational acceleration slows down. However the spin rate remains very high. I do not yet know when the rotational rate begins to decelerate. Wait until the target guys get a hold of this! |
RE: New NAP Vanes(Pic)!
Wait until the target guys get a hold of this! And will there be more than one size? Will there be smaller and larger lenghts offered? |
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