BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Okay guys, I finally got off my butt and got some pics of the fletch contact problem on my BowTech Liberty.

Here are the specs..

BowTech Liberty (29.5" draw and 71# draw weight)

28.25" Gold Tip 3-D Pro 75/95 arrows (100 grain field points and 4" Duravanes with 4 degree right offset)

Trophy Taker Shakey Hunter arrow rest
Copper John Dead Nuts Hunter 3-pin sight
Jim Fletcher Tru Peep Hunter Style (1/8")

Here are some pics that I took. They aren' the best quality or angles, but they are the best I could get with my camera.

With the cock vane down, about 1/16" of the vane will rub the cable. With the cock vane out, I am getting about 3/16" of clearance from the vanes. I will include pics of both........

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Can you configure your rest and use another cable guard slide so the cables are riding on the outer part of the cable rod? Perhaps not with the fallaway rest. Does the rod have any adjustability at all as far as right or left movement? If not, this is why I detest straight cable guard rods on some of the newer bows.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Cougar,

I have the rest tied into the factory cable slide from BowTech, but I think that I am going to remove that and tie the string into the down buss cable. I am seriously considering putting on a Simms cable slide as it should give me a little more clearance. I have never really cared for the BowTech cable slides.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Sounds like a good move to me. The stock slides are tough and were wearing on my string/cables the short time I had them on. The simms ought to cure your ills with the fletching contact.
Good luck with it!!

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Straight cableguards are tough to gain adequate clearance with larger vanes in some instances due to the design of the individual bow model and the shooters' preferred rest and arrow configuration, but many manufacturers use them, so it is not an isolated incident-- I've had many customers complain over the years when using shoot-through rests and high-profile vanes/feathers with a straight cableguard. The slide may help, but you will probably have to rotate nocks as well by the looks of your pics.

Another option (tho drastic) would be to switch the guard itself up to a rotating one like the one in this pic-- then you can tune your arrow pass correctly no matter what arrow or vane style you use. This would be a pain certainly and you should contact the Bowtech factory before any "modifications" are done otherwise it will void your warranty, but if you cannot gain the needed clearance you may need to do it as ANY cable contact will hamper arrow flight and performance will be inconsistent. Yet another and more simple alternative (tho pricey) would be to switch to a different shaft with lower profile vanes. Good luck! Pinwheel 12

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

In most cases our slides work great but there are some set ups where they just won't work right. Of my 15 demo bows, only one has any problems with clearance using the factory slide, all the rest are fine.

I personally haven't had any fletching clearance problems in my initial set ups with the stock slides but after my initial set up I put on after market slides too, always have no matter what make of bow it was.

I've used Bomar and Sims with much success but currently I use Hicks slides. I have 2 different models that they make. One is called the Target model, it's white and it holds the harness plenty far enough over for every type fletching I use. They also have a Hunter model, it's black and it holds the harness over even farther than the Target, it holds them too far over and induces way too much lean if you ask me.


IMO, There's a couple possible problems with the type of system Kevin posted above.

I've seen guys (the home do-it-yourselfers) that adjust the cable rod as far out as it can possibly go (talk about unnecessary and dangerous cam lean, especially on short axle bows), and I've also seen these work themselves loose (some in the field too). Not that they're a bad system but I've seen these problems with them and should be watched out for if used.

However, they can be a great alternative if they're set up right with the proper amount of clearance and they are locked down very good so they don't vibrate loose. I've got a couple of after market models that Toxonics makes, or least they used to me them.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Pat,

Can you list any specific reasons why certain setups are experiencing this and others are not?...other than the issue of a high profile vane then why is it that some models, like my own, do not come close to the cables while others, like BM's, seem to be rubbing?

Thanks.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

After reviewing Jeepnuts pics he sent me, it seems to be more of a prob w/ those using a straight fletch cock feather down or those using a Right offset or helical w/ cock feather down. I experiemented a bit last night and had no probs with cock feather/vane down in those cases w/ a left helical/offset.

For those with the slight contact problem I would recommend either:

1) fletching w/ a left offset/helical

2) using a dropaway where fletch orientation is not so important (I can even shoot cock feather sideways no prob on my TT w/ 5" feathers)

or

3) trying the Hicks target model (white)slide that Pat recommended. It gives plenty of clearance without too much side load.

As Pat said, the "Hunter" (black) model from Hicks causes way too much side load, and I'm on the fence with the Sims (I've tried it as well and it seems to be right in the middle between the target and hunter models from Hicks).

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Pat is correct in that some people tend to rotate an adjustable cableguard too far out, and this being detrimental because it will then create undue sidepull and wear on bushings. But my thoughts on this comment is that one simply must be smarter than what they are working with IMHO, and correct placement of an adjustable cableguard, along with occasional inspection to ensure that it remains tight, (a little loctite blue works wonders upon installation) is little to ask and a great alternative to having to deal with occasional issues such as those depicted above.

The bottom line is that many bow manufacturers use straight carbon rods for one reason and one reason only---the saving of money. Adjustable rods cost more to produce, and with straight rods for the most part being very adequate, usually there is not problem--- but every once in awhile that saving of money comes back around to bite them in the butt, and this really doesn't even matter as to what specific part, or whose name is on the bow--- every manufacturer has bits and pieces somewhere where this happens.. Maybe someday we'll find the perfect bow, until then we'll have to keep muddling along....;)

Some companies (Parker for instance)are now angling the straight carbon rod into the riser a bit, allowing for more fletching clearance in the rear. This is also a simple and effecrtive method of allowing more arrowpass, tho not adjustable.

Hopefully this will be an easy fix for you BM, I still think you may be able to slightly rotate your nocks and with a new slide be OK.

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Pinwheel,

Thanks for the comments, as usual, they are very educational. I am getting clearance when my cock vane is out, and I shoot a drop away, so, I am fine as it is now. I have no fletch contact anywhere, but, I would see it being a problem for guys shooting standard prong style rests. I am getting about 3/16" of clearance with the cock vane out.

I am still thinking though that I will just get a new slide, one that will allow for a little more clearance. If I could get anothing 1/16"2/16" of clearance, I would be very very happy. I just hate the thought of my vanes passing by the cables with such a small space between them.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

BM,
Just a thought, but when I set my MM up I took the slide of and the cables naturally crossed above the cable gaurd ,but when I got the bow they were set up crossing below it, I put a Bomar slide on it and put it on with the cables crossing above and haven't had any problems, and what a diff. with cable wear w the bomar on it, I don't know if you will actually gain any room w the Liberty but it might be worth a look.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I hate to be the bad guy but is this acceptable to engineer a new riser without taking into consideration that the vast majority of archers today are shooting cock feather down with a right offset or helical for the right handed shooter to keep their points tight. And if a national survey was taken Im sure there are more people still using shoot thru rests than drop aways. It seems anything Bowtech does on this site is O.K. due to the bias of those here. I am not knocking the individuals as I think they are fine people always willing and ready to help others, But had the other company that starts with the letter M let something like this get past I am sure we would be hearing a different response. I dont think telling someone to replace their cable slide and switch to a drop away rest is acceptable when purchasing a top of the line bow. Where was this mentioned in the Liberty vs Diablo challenge.
BD

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

BD,

All good points. However I'm not seeing these problem myself...haven't on my 2004's , 2003s or 2002s. I've also got RH fletched arrows that clear (3-49's) on all 4 BowTechs I have in my posession at the moment, and I've shot Right helical fletch up until this past fall when I grabbed a 100 pk of Left wing feathers on clearance. I'm unaware of where the problem lies without being able to handle these people's bows and set-ups , so I'm only able to go by pics posted here and offering suggestions.

If the clearance is a big concern for some I would urge those folks to contact their dealers, and/or contact BowTech proper to see what is the next course of action.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

That cable slide looks very similar to the ones that NAP supply withe their drop away rests. That thing sets out so far that it is almost impossible to get fletching clearance. Get a slide that places the cables closer to the rod.

I agree with Dually too. Why wouldn't a company as popular as bowtech that charges such a premium price for their bows not check and correct this problem before it is put into production. This could have been a simple fix before the bow went into production. One out of fifteen having clearance problems is one too many IMO. A $750 bow should not have any of these annoying little problems.

One bad taste in my mouth against bowtech.[X(]

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Forgot to mention that I've let "The powers that be" :D know about this issue (and thread in particular) and will be discussing it with Kevin & others at the ATA show.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I think the reason that this went through is that the problem is so incredibly small. Like I said, I have maybe 1/16" of touch with the cock vane down shooting my arrows. That is being a little over kill, it is just a tiny rub that I actually never noticed when checking for fletch contact while setting the bow up. We checked for cable, dropaway string, and rhe rest, but I wasn't seeing any, but, when I looked with the arrow on I noticed it.

I don't like having this "problem", but I am not going to get ticked off about it. I had problems with my Hoyts paint scheme, but I didn't hate Hoyt for that.

I still love this bow and it still shoots amazing. My goal wasn't to have people trash BowTech about it, it was to let our boys from BowTech know that there is a potential slight problem there!

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

And there you have it!!
The first improvement for the 2005 models- more vane clearance provided by a different cable slide. or possible a cable rod that is angled a little further out than the current model.
Whew, now I can feel better about waiting for the 2005's;) j/k!

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I still haven't seen a problem with the 2004 models and clearance, is it possible that this is a small problem being blown into a big one??
It appears that it isn't that hard to solve.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I have yet to see these problems either. I'm not saying that they don't exist, I just haven't noticed anything like this.

I would question the angle of the photo and subsequently the positioning of the center shot. If the centershot is too far in, you'll definitely see the fletching get closer to the cables. I also don't see any vane damage. This could, however, be a new arrow.

I'm not taking any position because I can't examine the set-up personally. I just wonder how anyone else can accept something that they can't measure or confirm.

It's the engineer in me!:D:eek:

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Jason,
Have you checked your center shot on a gauge? I can't find anywhere where you said yes or no.......my TT is set very far out to the left, in fact it might be aired out. Looks farther out than yours is?.
I haven't had a chance to get mine on a centershot gauge yet so mine was just eyeballed carefully and then tuned, but my string,launcher, and pins are in a direct line........paper is great and shooting very tight groups.

Also if you notice, the clearance at rest is better when you lift the arrow to the launch position by hand...When you just let the arrow hang on the shelf like you are in the pics, the vanes are pointing at a spot lower on the cable which is closer to the centerline of the string.
If I place my 4" feathers cock vane "in" I have some contact........any other orientation and there is no contact.
It's close no doubt about it, but I only have conflict in one arrow position, a position I don't see too many shooters using.

RE: UPDATE!!!! BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Len,

Like I mentioned above, the pics aren't really that great. I couldn't seem to get the angle right! Trying to hold a bow, while taking a picture (and my digital camera won't work on the close setting so I had to use the auto setting and lean back) isn't too easy. The pics kind of make the problem worse than it is. The arrow in the picture is also a brand new arrow that hasn't been shot.

Matt,

The bow hasn't had a gauge put on it. The rest is set fully out and can't go over any further..


***UPDATE*** I just decided to do what Matt said and raise the launcher on my TT and then check out the fletch contact. Guess what, when it is lifted up, there is about 3/16" of clearance with the cock vane down. That thought never even crossed my mind, but that is the reason that I was getting great flight and now fletch contact, but when I just looked at the arrow without the rest lifted, I saw what would have been contact. Tommorow afternoon I will take a few more pics to show that.

I guess that I thought I had a problem and I really didn't!!!!!!!

RE: UPDATE!!!! BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

The wife's new Patriot VFT has plenty of clearance with her 4 inch vanes, cock vane down. My Plainsman drop away rest too is almost maxed out to reach good center shot tuning. The extreme sight window off set on the new risers would seem to me to provide ample cable rod clearance, I see no problems with ours anyway;)

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

So I'm shooting 5" shield cut feathers and have about 1/16" clipping the cable if I configure with cock feather down. I'm shooting an 04 Patriot single cam.

What in your opinions is the best teflon slide to get that little bit of extra clearance for my fletching?

Thanks,

Fritz

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I think, as some of the others have made mention to, that not everyone is experiencing this problem. That would lead me to one of two conclusions....either a) the cable guard rods on some of the production bows are not at the same angles as others or b) the actual problem lies with the individual setup on the bow and not the bow itself.

This is a tough one to call as it requires someone to actually physically have their hands on the bow to check it out further.

Gromage,

This could potentially put more stress on the cam. The reason I mention this is because I had actually been shooting my Pat SC in this fashion for some time and was experiencing some excessive wear on the cable. After some research I found that the cables are supposed to be crossing below the cable guard rod despite how they "sit at rest".

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

[quote]

quote:

Just a thought, but when I set my MM up I took the slide of and the cables naturally crossed above the cable gaurd ,but when I got the bow they were set up crossing below it, I put a Bomar slide on it and put it on with the cables crossing above and haven't had any problems,

Gromage,

This could potentially put more stress on the cam. The reason I mention this is because I had actually been shooting my Pat SC in this fashion for some time and was experiencing some excessive wear on the cable. After some research I found that the cables are supposed to be crossing below the cable guard rod despite how they "sit at rest".


Thats the opposite of what I've been taught , let them cross where they want to . I have noticed that bowtech crosses them below regardless . When I shot a bowtech and had clearance problems with my MZE I called the factory and was told " It makes no diferance where they cross" , and crossed them above the slide and it cured my problems .

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Up until recently that is the way I came to understand it as well. Apparently that is not the case with Bowtech's bows. I received that info from the proverbial "horse's mouth" (sorry Jeff...;) ) but would love to hear a further discussion of the subject.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I guess next time i will wait for more facts before putting my two cents in.
bd

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I think it was on here that there was a discussion going on when I first got my MM, I hadn't really noticed any fletch contact on my bow but it was close, someone replied and their reasoning sounded good when referring to where the cables naturally crossed so I gave it a try, it really seemed to give me more fletching clearance. Haven't noticed any unusual wear and the bows shooting great. If I remember correctly I called Bowtech before I did it and they said it didn't matter where they crossed. I wonder if it matter's whether the bow is a VFT or not , obviously my 02 MM is not. Jeez if I'm putting some kind of unknown stress on my bow I probably should get a new one:D. You think that rationale will fly with the wife?

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

gromage1, absolutely. Tell her you could be injured, but you need to keep the 02 as a backup.:D

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Definitely should be crossed under.

The main reason is that crossing above on the shorter bows causes more angle of the string off the idler and angle from the cable off the track. Neither is good for wear or cam/limb lean (added stress).

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Jeff,
I'm in no way disputing what your saying ,as a matter of fact I'm going to change the cables back on my bow as I wasn't having a fletch clearance problem anyway, but doesn't changing the slide essentially create the same problem as far as cable angle goes? or is it enough smaller of an angle change that it doesn't create the same added stress?

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Gary,

Oh no problem. Just trying to make sure folks get the message on how they are supposed to cross. :) wasn't implying anything :)

You answered yourself w/ the latter statement.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

That works for me, I really think I need to let my wife know about the inherent danger I may be in from putting that undo stress on the MM limbs and get a new bow,of course as Phil said the MM would probably be safe enough in an emergency so I better keep it.:D:D:D

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I questioned the 'non-standard' crossing at the cable slide years ago and was given the answer that it increased speed. I did some tests and found that a possible .5 - 1 fps increase was possible. Once it was seen by other manufacturers, it seems that many of them jumped onto that bandwagon.

More recently I was told that it would change the distance that the cable slide would travel and could be used to enhance some drop-away rest requirements. Again, I found this to be true.

The problem I have found is that it is normally done when it should left to its 'natural' state. On some bow designs it will increase the wear factor of the string/cable(s) and will cause too much friction which will result in loss of speed.

Unless you find a very good or necessary reason to do it otherwise, I'd lay it out in the 'natural' position.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Len,

So, in your experience, would the current Bowtech lineup fall into the category of having a "good and necessary reason"?

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

How do you alter whether the cables cross above or below the guard rod? Different slides?

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

I've noticed nothing adverse about having them above on my Bowtech, I actually have less cable wear on the new cables since I change them to crossing above, however I did change my slide also so that may be what help the cable wear. If Bowtech says the should be crossed below the gaurd I'll probably change them back.


Range,
If you you take the slide off of the gaurd and the cables out of the slide the cables actually cross where they want to naturally. When you put it back together just put the slide back on with them crossing where they want to naturally.

RE: BowTech Cable Clearance Problem..... PICS!!!!
 

Solved my clearance problem today with an Alpine Archery cable slide. It's pure white teflon coated in rubber with a axle molded through it that holds two wheels for the cables. Seems smoother that the factory version. We'll see how it shoots soon.

Fritz

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