MZE and broadheads
 

I have read hundreds of glowing posts on the Muzzy Zero Effect arrow rest. My question is this -

If in fact this rest eliminates fletching clearance problems and your bow (solo cam) is tuned will the result be field point tipped arrows and broadhead tipped arrows that impact in the same place, assuming the proper arrow spine?

My current set up has broadheads impacting 6" lower than my fieldpoints. However, they are consistently 6" lower in good groups so I have not considered this to be an issue. In a perfect world they would both impact in the same place and I could practict with field points and broadheads instead of broadheads exclusively without being required to move my sight.

How much of this difference in impact points is due to rest contact? I shoot 64#, solo cam, 28-1/2" gold tip 5575, fixed blade Muzzy 100 gr. and would a MZE eliminate this?

This rest and the glowing reports have really captured my attention.

Thanks

Shan

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Shan,

Yes, you can get your broadheads to group with your fieldpoints, if your bow is properly tuned and your arrow spine is correct. The Muzzy rest will help out to some extent, but is not a cure all. Most of the time when we add a broadhead to our arrows we generally weaken the spine of the arrow some. This is because the broadhead arrow is now longer than our fieldpoint arrow. So if your arrows spine is a bit on the weak side to being with, this could be a problem. There are ways to compensate for this: have an arrow that has adequate spine to begin with to allow for the broadhead, shoot a lighter tipped broadhead than our fieldpoints, or shorten the arrow some if possible.

The Muzzy ZE is a great hunting rest, but it does not compensate for bad tuning or incorrect arrowspine selection.

Aim Hard!

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

If there are only three or so spines to choose from when shooting carbons (Goldtips, CE, etc.) do you really have a choice of arrow spine. If not then how do we acheive the same arrow flight between field points and broadheads?

Edited by - Illini on 02/08/2002 13:58:28

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Shan, I had the same problem. My Darton with a Quicktune 3000 rest was continually shooting broadheads at least 5" lower than my field points. I had a high tear that I just couldn't get rid of. Switched to the MZE, instantly started shooting bullets and now my BH's hit right with my field points.

I'm not saying that it will solve everyones problems but it sure cured mine.

Turc

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Illini,

Part of the tuning of your arrows is the selecting the correct broadhead weight. You can further adjust an arrows spine by changing the tip weight. Adding weight weakens the spine and taking it away stiffens up the spine. So even though you purchase a predicted spine range you can change it some by your arrow setup.

Aim Hard!

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

The broadhead arrow is not weaker because with a broadhead the arrow is longer. The shaft size and length has not changed any. It still flexes just the same. It is that broadheads make the shaft more critical of small tuning mistakes than fieldpoints do. If you slightly move your rest up until your broadheads are hitting with your fieldpoints, you will be done. Unless your arrows are already underspined. Not trying to start an argument, just stating a fact. If the length of your points were a consideration, you would see it listed in the arrow charts stating this is arrow spine is coorect unless you shoot a fieldpoint over 1" long.

Edited by - 3D4PSE on 02/08/2002 17:20:59

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

3D4PSE,

I beg to differ with you! Check every arrow chart out there, the spine changes with the arrow length required for a given drawlength and draw poundage for any arrow shaft. Go to Steve Jackson's site and run a few senerios changing the arrow lengths on the interactive site and see what happens. Its just like taking a 10 foot piece of 2" PVC pipe and putting a 5 pound weight at the end of it and holding it out horizontal. The pipe will bend and flex a certain amount with that amount of weight. Now change the weight to 10 pounds and note the bend and flex, the diameter and length has not changed, but the pipes stiffness has been effectively weakened. Now add 5 feet of pipe to the length with the same weights and in each case the pipe will flex more than with the shorter lengths. A shorter pipe will be stiffer ie. a five foot piece has less overall flex than a 10 foot piece same weigh applied.

Aim Hard!

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

The length of your tip, whether a broadhead, or a fieldtip, has absolutely no impact as far as changing the spine of your arrow. Weight of said tip does.
FLHunter, I think you mistook what 3D4PSE was trying to say.
While I have never even seen steve jacksons chart, I have had people tell me some hilarious #`s that they claim this chart has given them. I hope they were just misreading the information on it.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

OK but you are not even considering the same thing. I am not talking about putting heavier weights on the arrow, anybody that has ever read the Easton chart knows that will change the spine as will changing the lengths of the shafts. I am well aware of Jackson's site and when you change the arrow lengths, yes you change the spine. I am talking about screwing a broadhead on the shaft not a scenario like you stated. A shaft with a certain length and a specified weight on the end of it will flex the same whether it is a 1/2 point or a 1 1/2" weight and that is all we are talking about, not 5' or 10 lb weights. You are reading alot more into this in my opinion. Look at the Easton site, it lists the correct arrow length as the groove in the nock to the insert fopr arrow spines. The length of the point is covered by the weight of the point, not the length of it. You will not find where it asks for the length of the arrow point as it does not factor into the shaft spine, only the weight of it.

Edited by - 3D4PSE on 02/08/2002 22:15:39

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Also, I did check Jackson's site and it asks for correct arrow length. That is the length from the string groove to the insert. You can check the Easton site to confirm how to properly measure an arrow.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Big Country,
That is exactly how people come up with the crazy numbers on Jackson's site. You have to know how to properly enter the information before it can spit out he correct info. I have had people tell me that the FOC on a given arrow was anywhere from 7% to 10% just because of the numbers they punched in when we were referring to the same arrow.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

I just measured my Goltip 5575's. They are 28" from the throat of the nock to the insert. I also just lowered my poundage to 60# (for spring turkey hunting). I shoot a 100 gr. muzzy broadhead. If I read the chart right I am a little on the stiff side for my setup. So, theoretically I suppose the spine issue shouldn't be the root cause of difference in impact points between the field points and broadheads.

I paper tuned bullet holes with field points and broadheads. But I still have broadheads striking 6" lower than the Fieldpoints. First of all, what is the cause of this. Secondly, if it is fletching contact (I shoot feathers)does it go away with the MZE???

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

It is caused by the 'wings' on the front of your arrow are trying to control your arrow flight and the fieldpoint aren't. The filedpoints require more rest movement than the broadheads to make a point of impact change. Therefore, if you bow is tuned, very slightly move your rest up and try shoot the broadheads where the fieldpoints are hitting. Once you get this done, you broadheads are flying as good as they can because they are flying just like fieldpoints. I do not go to alot of trouble on this if I am getting real good groups without them hitting the same but I have done it a few times when I got bored or really nervous about a big hunt. Let us know if it fixes your set up.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

The way I've read these posts on the spine chart differential, I'd say we're all equally right and wrong in our convictions. After all, the charts are only an "indicator" for the correct spine for your individual bow/arrow system.

Because the charts are indicators, in my shop we use at least two of them plus the manufacturer's chart to ascertain where we should START. I can't tell you how many times the charts were incorrect. After all, how can a chart cover all the cam styles, limb deflections, and string elasticity. Now keep in mind that we're talking about getting something fine tuned.

We've had situations where we tried three different carbon arrows from three different manufacturers while using their individual charts for the selection for a particular bow. One might work to perfection whereas the other two fell far short.

What this is all getting to is that there are a lot of things that affect the arrow selection and minor discrepancies can put one "over the edge". By moving the weight outward by any type of "extension", you can weaken the spine. For example, a 1/4" round ball at the end of a straw will not have as much impact on the straw as a long 1/32" rod weighing the same weight as the ball. That "length" will affect the spine; but, by how much??? We must also consider the fact that the blades of a broadhead are wings that can drive the spine in any direction on a poorly tuned arrow.

If you are close to the edge of spine discrepancy and you extend the length of the weight, it could affect the spine. If, on the other hand you are at the mean spine parameters, the affect will be negligible.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

I agree but it does not change it enough to even consider it. If you spine is right for fieldpoints of one weight, the broadheads will have a sufficeint spine unless you shoot a 5" long broadhead that has a 3" cutting diameter. We are nit picking.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

If you put a 2 1/2" Steelforce or Magnus on the end of an arrow, it can very well push an arrow off the necessary spine. Yes, this may seem to be nit picking to you; but, there is a reality to this under certain circumstances. And, when it pops up, we must be aware of the probable causes and probable solutions.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

OK, I give. I am not going to convince you and you are going to convince me. That is what makes archery fun. We can both believe different things and we both can still shoot good.

Edited by - 3D4PSE on 02/09/2002 00:29:27

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Even I will agree that a head that is of that length, can affect arrow spine. Who uses that stuff, anyhow!:)
Hey 3D4PSE, this is just an opinion on my part concerning the jackson chart and FOC.
If someone knows enough about archery to even care about FOC, why would`nt they just figure it out themselves?

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

Big and 3D,

I understand what you are saying, but from a practical standpoint just a little extra total arrow length can change the spine of your arrow. For example I had a set of arrows whose spine was supposed to plenty adequate for the poundage I was shooting. In fact I was about 8 pounds of drawweight below the charted spine limit of the arrows. When I added the same weight broadhead to the shafts(100grain)the arrows would not group with my field points at the same poundage. Backing off the draw weight 3 pounds allowed the broadheads to group with the fieldpoints. Take the broadhead back off the arrow, push the poundage backup and the arrow would group in the same spot, or leave the lower poundage add the fieldpoint the arrows would group with broadheads. The arrows were spin tested for being true. The only factor that changed was the arrows total length by adding the broadhead. The flex nodules of the arrow had changed with the slight difference in the length of the arrow.

Aim Hard!

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

FLHunter, Len, 3D4PSE and others,

Do I take the above posts to mean that the MZE will cure the "contact" issues between the arrow and rest but not the spine isse (which perhaps is the real culprit in this dilema)? Again, in my situation Goldtip 5575's @28", 60#, solocam, release/loop what other choices do I have??

Is moving the rest up to meet my fieldpoints as 3D4PSE suggested addressing the spine issue or merely just treating a sympton. And how big an issue is it really. Or put differently, how much does this affect accuracy?



Edited by - shan on 02/09/2002 12:00:06

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

The rest issue is to get your broadheads flying the same as your fieldpoints. It is because your bow is not set up as perfectly as it could be. It is not to cover something up like arrow spine. What I was saying, if you can't get them to hit together by doind that, it has to have something else wrong like maybe arrow spine. Try moving your rest and see what happens.

RE: MZE and broadheads
 

3D4PSE,

I was about to make another post asking another question and thought, deer seasons over and I have a couple of months before turkey season so why not give moving the rest a try?!?!?!

Well, you were right. I made one small adjustment left and another adjustment up with my TigerTuff rest and viola'! My next broadhead shot shaved about 1/4 " off my field point tipped Goldtip arrow. I am minus one arrow but now have peace of mind.

This bothered me the past couple of years with this particular setup. When I shot Aluminum arrows this was never an issue. My fieldpoints always shot with my broadheads. Switched to carbons out of a solo cam and had the problems I explained in earlier posts.

I am almost scared to paper tune. If I get these good consistent groups is there really any point in paper tuning?