spine consistancey with carbons
 

What all carbon arrow has the best spine tolerence? I see most manufactures rate there weight and strightness but none rate there spine. I' m getting ready to set-up for 3-d/target and change back from aluminum for the weight factor. The last couple years I' ve been using carbon express 3-d selects and have been happy with there proformence. I did notice they weaken over time. I think acc' s are noted for the best spine tolerence but what all carbon arrow has the best tolerence? Other then the price of acc' s I don' t like the small dia. I shoot a prong type launcher and have a clearence issue. If it' s the best arrow I will shoot them though. Thanks, JERRY

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

What you ask is a very good question I hope somene can answer. It is the more important factor of the three--spine consistency, straightness, and weight tolerance, pretty much in that order. Unfortunately I have e-mailed some of the companies that make AC arrows with this question and so far have pretty much gotten the run around. I guess you have to own your own spine tester to get the right answer. Then all you need to do is buy a lot of arrows and test them. Far beyond the means of most of us.

You' re right about the ACC' s. Easton does give spine tolerance for these. They are small in diameter, too. I shoot a hard helical and just put a drop away rest on to correct the problem. Really I always shot a Star Hunter and didn' t have a problem as I shoot feathers, but the Muzzy ZE took care of anything that was happening.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Guys,
Take a look at www.blackhawkarchery.com. I' ve been doing some searching because I may switch to carbons. They are boasting about their spine consistancys and also offer the Vapor v-maxx, which is close to the diameter of a 22xx aluminum shaft. Check it out and repost your thoughts.

-NH

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

That' s what I' m looking for. From what I see on there web site I' m going to pick-up a few and see the results. The only hitch I see is how can you compare there spine calibration system to any other arrow. I thik if we shout loud enough the rest of the manufactors will comply to a universial system for comparision. Jerry

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

That' s just it Jerry. Unfortunately the spine of a carbon shaft can vary at any point in the length of the shaft. With the aluminum arrows, such as Easton, the material used is always consistent from point to nock, unlike carbons that are built up with layers. I personaly think that Blackhawk has found a way to guarantee the consistancy of their spine rating by the building process they use and the way they check it. I may give them a try early this spring only because I' ve been waiting for a fatter carbon hunting shaft. ACC' s are nice, but I use a prong style rest.

-NH

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Jerry,
You know I didn' t think of it at the time of my last post but you are right. I' d like to see some sort of standard for showing spine also. CE has their arrows numbered 100, 200, 300 etc. Blackhawk has who knows what, depending on which ones you have. Frankly, I like Easton and Beman numbers. They tell you the actual spine deflection-- 500 equals .500; 340 equals .340, etc. Sure would make life more simple for us consumers.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Definitely Easton A/C & X-Alum technology has the tightest spine tolerance from shaft to shaft and dozen to dozen.

As far as the all -carbons I' ve tested, Beman/Easton is probably best overall w/ Goldtip & CX about even among the major manufacturers. Carbon-tech has gained a rep for extreme spine consistency, but I' ve yet to test any.

As for the BlackHawk all carbon shafts...they didn' t last long enough for me to get them tested. IME, they are extremely fragile. My pro-shop has started carrying them (due to a pretty big price hike from Carbon Express creating a need for a low cost entry level carbon shaft in the shop) and I' ll be sure to keep tabs on what the customers think/find, but IMO they need drastic improvement: what good is the tolerance if the shafts cannot take even minor abuse? The dealer cost on them is so ridiculously low, there is no doubt they are having to sacrifice something.

The BlackHawk CAA (A/C/C knockoffs) are not bad however. They are not A/C/Cs but compare well w/ most of the high end all-carbon shafts such as Goldtip 3D Pros & CX 3D Selects.

Really..in an all carbon shaft, the Beman ICSH/Easton C2 line is hard to beat for the $.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Can you shot a prong rest and a/c/c' s or do you have to use a drop away? I have been shoot ICS' s and was thinking of changing.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

An assumption on my part. Seems to me that the small diameter of the ACC' s would create clearence problems with as little as 2 degree off-set fletching. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

As far as using a prong rest with ACCs, you will be OK with straight offset, and a small amount of helical is OK too. Hard helical is going to be tough to get clearance. IMO, the problem is not all that different from the ICS type arrows, though. I experimented with the Whisker Biscuit to see what I could do with it. When properly set up, the accuracy is quite good. That will be my hunting setup until I see a reason to change.;)

I got 6 Blackhawk Vapor 4000 to try out due to all of the advertising about spine consistency. I was quite disappointed with them. From day 1 I had 2 arrows that would not shoot with the group @30 yds. even with field points. As Jeff B. mentioned, they also did not hold up well.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

As for your topic I want to mention what i did in another topic.
Go see what i wrote in: Mathing Arrow Spine

Good luck.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

For some reason, my other post did not show up. I went to edit it, and most of what I typed was there. Then clicked OK, and it came up blank anyway![:@]

ACCs should be OK with a prong rest with either straight offset, or mild helical. If you want to use hard helical and a prong rest, I would use feathers.

I personally tried out a Whisker Biscuit rest, and have been pleased with the accuracy and arrow security. It will be my hunting rest until I find something better.;)

I have had a bad experience with Blackhawk Vapor ACAs myself. I only got a half dozen, but 2 of them would not shoot with the group even with field points at 30 yds. The others seemed to break down and lose accuracy faster than other carbons I have tried. I even ruined one of them just trying to take fletching off to refletch. A sliver of carbon lifted up, and peeled all the way back to the back of the shaft. Didn' t trust it after that. I have refletched a few carbons over the years, and that is the only time something like that has happened.

I can get my ACCs for a reasonable price. Otherwise, I would probably shoot Beman ICS Hunters, or Easton Aluminums. JMHO

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

So I am still confused a little bit. are ya' ll saying the ics hunters are as good as the a/c/c' s? are the a/c/c' s worth the extra mola or do I need to suck it up and continue to buy new ICS hunters. Also, are there any extra tips for selecting shafts in the store? I have just been randomly picking 6 at a time and take them home and fletch them up. another question does it matter in consistency where you place your cock feather. thanks for the info.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

arkansas.....as far as placing my cock feather, I do the "bearing test". Simply take 3 bearings (old skateboard bearings work good), put one on each end and one in the middle of your arrow. Support the two end bearings across an inside corner of a counter top. Push down on the center bearing. The arrow will spin in the bearings to the weak spine of the arrow. I usually do it a couple of times to make sure (some of the carbons have 2 spots, I go with the stronger one). I then mark the top of the arrow, and put my cock feather there. I shoot a Bodoodle so my cock feather is down. Since doing this I have never had to "index" my nocks. If one of my arrows won't group after this, it only gets worse by twisting the nock. I heard this works with finger shooters too but don't know any (the cock would have to be on the side).

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Thats intresting...
I never took notice on where to place the cockfeather.
I didnt know it would make a difference with the matrix wrapped carbons....

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

23D, I thought I was the only nut who did that. LMAO. I do that by floating them in water. Submerge and spin them in water and they come to the top with the crown down. Talk about compulsive obcessive. My wife just rolls hers eyes any more. Thats great. JERRY

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

To answer your first question: Absolutely not. Among ALL carbon shafts they are some of the most consistent for spine and weight...I generally have to trim from either end to get straightness "decent" and that doesn't always help..even at my rather short 27.75 to 28" arrow length. IME, A/C/Cs are worth every penny, but in the all carbons the Easton C2 shafts and Beman ICSH/camo ICSH are decent hunting shafts if care is taken with them from the get-go.

My tips for buying/using all-carbon arrows would be

1) buy raw shafts only and in dozens only. Don't mix and match from different dozens (cause they may mix, but they don't always match)

2) Use an arrow roller (i.e.Apple arrow roller found in most archery catalogs) or straightener to figure out how each shaft needs to be cut for best straightness (cut from one end or both..or use the arrow for a tomato stake)

3) If possible (i.e not too much trouble) beforehand, like IMN23D does, find the high spine side

4) trash the push in nocks and install a uni-bushing and G-nock (w/ epoxy) for greater longevity and safety.

5) Fletch cock feather appropriately according to what you find in step 3, then complete fletching

6) use slow setting epoxy for inserts w/ the broadheads you plan to shoot, turning them until you get concentricity as good as possible

I usually ignore # 5 due to a wife who nags me to no end when "I play with my shafts in the bathtub" ;) and just rotate the nocks If I get a "flyer".

Or you can buy A/C/Cs and ignore #'s 2, possibly #3, #4 and possibly #5. I very rarely have to turn a nock on A/C/C to get them to group tight (at least within my abilities)

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

to jerry, when you sping them in water is the spine up or down? am confused on term crown. do I place my cock feather on the upside or down side. I don't have any bearings to test the arrow with unfortunately.

to jeff b. thanks for the info. but, when I goto my local archery shop all the arrows are in a big bin and not grouped from by the dozen. is this how they are at you shop? how then do I not mix and match them per say? are they sold to the retail shops from the manufacturer by the dozen? whooshh lots more questions as I learn about this subject. its kinda like building a fly rod and having to learn about the spine except arrows are a lot smaller and you cant flex the sections like you a fly rod.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

I found that the "float test" didn't match the "bearing test" for spine. Sometimes they matched, most times they didn't. When "float testing" I would still have to index my nocks, with the "bearing test" I never have had to yet.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

If the floating-high side matches the spine, it is purely by coincidence. Floating the arrow just shows where the natural curve is. The spine is a function of the graphite layers themselves, and is just as likely to be perpendicular to this high side than along it.

When the arrow flexes, it will flex toward the point of weakest spine, not to the spot that floats the highest. In my opinion, based on years of studying how things flex for my business, I think the floating concept has absolutely nothing to do with how an arrow will shoot. You need to check for the spine by flexing the shaft. This is the only way to see how the arrow is going to flex when placed under load.

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

Thanks guys for the info. I learn more here then any other archery I visit. I hope I don't seem like a idiot but I'm not clear about the bearing test. Is there a site I can go to that will show the process? Thanks. Jerry

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

All this talk about bearing and float tests are confusing me. I understand how they are done any why, but I don't understand why it's such a big hassle to tune them. In Easton's catalog the state that "Easton arrows deliver uniform spine between all arrow shafts of the same size, and 360 degrees around each shaft". So I would have to assume that the bearing test woudn't reveal the weakest part of the spine on a carbon (or carbon/metal) shaft because it's supossed to be gauranteed uniform. Why all the extra work when you can shoot an aluminum? I tested the spines on Easton shafts years ago, and found them to be consistent.
Seems like I look for a reason to switch to carbons every year, but can't see how they are better than the aluminums. Sombody please tell me what I am missing........ I shoot SuperSlam Selects and X7 Cobalts now (2413), but I don't like the "fatness" of the shaft. What advantages can I expect from carbon shafts?

-NH

RE: spine consistancey with carbons
 

By saying their arrows are spined uniformly, they are saying that within a specified range of weights, their arrows will resist flexing to the same degree all around the shaft. BUT- this does not mean that the arrow won't have a slightly stronger or weaker side (within the tolearances of their weight measurement range). Even aluminum arrows all have a spine as we are describing it here. They tend to have a less pronounced spine than carbon arrows, but it's still there.

The bottom line is always how your arrows shoot. If all of your arrows group well, you don't need to worry about any of this. But these things explain why some arrows are "off" of others, and they can help tighten arrow groups for experienced shooters. For hunting stuff, these slight adjustments rarely matter.

You ask what the advantages of carbon are, I'll say it again. For me, it boils down to two things.
1) once straight, always straight
2) stronger than aluminum (for any given weight of arrow), allowing you to use a lighter arrow and gaining arrow speed OR giving you a stronger, tougher arrow of the same weight.