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FDC, What a difference it makes?
I was reading through the ' 03 Darton catalouge, and noticed they mention that the reason for their silky smoothness is during the draw their CPS cams build quickly to peak, maintain it for several inches to maximize stored energy then gradually taper off to fall into a solid wall, versus others who build to peak late in the draw cycle to then fall off drastically into the wall.
This may be common knowledge, but the little bell went off inside my head and I finally got it. If you hit peak early in the draw cycle, you are still using your big back muscles more than your shoulder muscle. This is probably why people feel they can draw more weight with a smoother drawing similar speed cam, as they actually can as they have more big muscle group upper body strength at their disposal, and why they perceive similar draw weighted bows as one being lessor weight than the other. For bows that hit peak late, you are relying much more on your much smaller and weaker shoulder to get the bow over the hump. Given Darton' s speeds, it seems the location of sustained peak in the FDC has nothing to do with the attainable speed. They' ll do very near (draw for draw) what my bowtech PF cammed Hornet will do, which hits peak later in the cycle. Based on this, I wonder why more high energy bow manufacturers don' t place peak draw sooner in the draw cycle? Perhaps they do, and I just don' t know it? If so, who are some of these guys? Is this how bowtech " smoothed out" their ' 04 FDCs? |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
hehe excuse my dumbness for a second
<edit> dumbness cured, thanks Range :) |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Force Draw Curve, the plotted line that shows how much weight is being drawn at each point along the draw cycle from start to end.
Does anyone know where there is an on-line graph of the Darton CPS and say the Bowtech Infinity cam so we can visually compare them? |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
As an added bonus, an early peak in the FDC should promote a smoother feeling release as well, shouldn' t it?
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Found this PDF on the Darton CPS Extreme-
http://www.dartonarchery.com/DrawForceFinal.pdf I know the FDC graph is printed in the ' 02 Diamond catalouge which can still be downloaded from their site, I have it printed here and am making some comparisons I' ll add later... |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
That isn' t what people want nowadays.For some reason people think for a bow to be accurate that you need an extremely short valley and extremely hard wall.I can' t understand why a bow needs to pull your shoulder out of socket on a letdown for it to shoot accurately.[X(]
A valley is really a superior design in terms of forgiveness.If you do creap,the bow will still shoot the same.Allowing the person shooting the bow to be much more relaxed and not so concerned about having the bow drawn into the wall so hard. I myself like a mix of valley and wall.The Cam 1/2 on my Ultratec ,when set in the middle draw length slot provides this,along with the cables being set for it. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
RB, Norb Mullaney writes about this all the time in his Bowhuntingworld bow reports. He often makes comments to the effect that he cannot understand why more companies do not use this approach.
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I' ve compared the FDC graphs of the Bowtech (on a Diamond) 2000 PF Cam and the Darton Extreme linked above. Both are for a 30" draw, only the Diamond is with a 7" brace height and a 70# draw, the Darton for a 9" (as far as I can tell, the FDC starts at 9" ) brace height and a bow set at 60#s. Even at 70, imagine the tracking would be similar:
D= Distance D from brace to peak D at peak Distance from peak to hold Darton- 7" 6" 8" Bowtech- 11" 6" 6" What a difference. Both bows allow the same energy storage potential at maximum draw, but Darton maximizes your effort while you are using your strongest muscles, Bowtech the opposite. I grabbed a tape meaure and played these scenarios out. It' s easy to see that the sooner in the FDC the bow ramps up to peak, the easier it would be perceived to draw. T-Fox, I' m no longer one of that crowd. I want an early in the FDC peak on my next bow. Pman, any idea if there is an archive of Norb' s reviews on the net someplace? I' ve read probably 5-6 of his reviews over the past few years, this either never jumped out at me, or I was never paying attention. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Here' s a link filled with a bunch of interesting stuff-
http://www.huntersfriend.com/bowselection.htm#limits |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Rangeball,I have also started moving away from the short valleys but I really like my cam 1/2.Even it has a very short valley when using the longest draw setting or if you have the top cam adjusted ahead of the bottom.
We are still in the minority but people are starting to change. Parker has a bow out called the easy draw 33 if I remember right.It is basically a round wheel 1 cam.I was kinda interested but just don' t like a bow to have as much reflex as it does.They have to do that to try and get some speed out of it.I think the IBO on it is only 290 but should be fun to shoot. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I think it comes down to personal preference. I' ve heard the Darton CPS cam(s) described as harsh by some, smooth by others. I personally prefer the early peak myself. Bowtech' s Infinity cam used to seem very harsh to me, especially to let down without shooting. I have drawn both a VFT and a single cam Patriot (both " 03s), and they have certainly been smoothed out nicely.
I have two similar hard twin cam bows with both sets of cams designed (I think) by Kevin Strother. My " Frankenstein" bow has the Oregon Black Knight cams on it, and IMO, it is very smooth to draw, peaks earlier, and rolls into the letoff valley (which is extremely short) sooner than the Bowtech Pro 38 DC. The Bowtech starts off much easier to pull. With the 28" modules on these cams, and the grip off the bow, it draws fairly smooth to the end, but drops off quicker than the Oregon cams. With the grip on and the 29" modules in place, the bow definitely has a " hump" to pull over before reaching letoff. Maybe that is why I decided to give up a little performance and shoot the bow with the shorter modules and bare riser.;) On a positive note, I did get " caught" at half-draw 3 times by the doe I shot a week ago. Even with shoulders that have given me some problems, I was able to complete the draw while sitting when she finally stopped looking up at me. I read a few years back that Browning had some trouble with bent axles that was supposedly caused by hard cams that peaked too early. I would think that if the peak was reached early, then more force may have to be absorbed by the system when the limbs and cam(s) come to brace. That may be a factor as to why Dartons seem to have more noise and vibration than similar bows by other companies. They also have not really focused on cutting recoil with riser/limb design (with the exception of the Rampage and Avalanche), and the CPS cam makes no attempt to use a countermass type of cam to oppose the motion of the limbs like the perimeter weighted one cams, or the Hoyt Cam and a Half. ;) |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Perceived smoothness probably has a lot to do with how each of us draws, and our physical makeup. I have some rotator cuff problems that give me pain early in the draw. If I can get the draw through the first 8-10" , I can finish it.
I' m also quite sure I use both my shoulder and back muscles throughout the whole draw. Different areas of the shoulder and back are used, depending on what point in the draw I' m at. Once I get to a certain point in the draw, the weakened muscles in my shoulder are not in use, and I can get it the rest of the way back easily. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I am in the same category as Straightarrow. If the draw cycle peaks early I cannot pull the bow back. I can exert the most strength in the mid to later part of the cycle. Shoulder problems here as well. So for me a smooth draw is one that ramps linearly to about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way and then rolls off.
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Range , I just got back from Pa and darton finaly sent my modual in the mail , at no charge I might add :) . Got the mavrick extreme twisted up correctly and went outside and shot a few arrows . Man this is a sweet shoot' n son of a gun .I cant believe they dont even have it listed in the catalouge for 03 .
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I think everyone will be pleasantly suprised:D by the draw force on the 04' s. just because Diamond pays a royalty to use my patent doesn' t mean they set a bow up with the same pre-load, same cam rotation or even the same cam and mod geometry, which by the way is different.[:o]
The 04 Patriot hits peak at about 6.5" into the draw cycle, but starts dropping off faster than last years cams.[8D] Yes, most people can draw more weight if the cams reach peak sooner only if the cam and mods are designed to drop off of maintained peak weight earlier in the draw cycle. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
My affinity for Bowtech aside, isn' t it nice to have the chief engineer behind a major bow manufacturer respond to technical posts? Rhetorical ofcourse. :)
Range, I gotta admit, when I first saw the title of this thread I thought someone has misspelled FOC and therefore did not open it until now. ;) Sorry. I think you bring up some good points. JeffB has been saying something similar to this for few years now and I can be one to attest to the fact that the ' 03 Pat SC' s cam is definitely smoother than the infinity cam used the previous year. Based on what Kevin just posted I would assume that is because of your hypothesis. Great, just great....now I wish I had ordered an ' 04 Pat SC instead of the Might Might.....:D |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I think that the realization that speed certainly isn' t everything is finally coming to the forefront. Many of us used to play the speed game back in the late 80' s and early 90' s, and some who were just coming into the sport saw this and simply thought that they too had to have the fastest mousetrap made, and carried the tradition on for another " generation" . Hence we contrinued to see many " rat-trap" designs with nasty cams and low brace heights, etc, etc. This mentality is definately waning(finally) in recent years IMO-- guys now want smooth, easy drawing designs that offer competitive speed. Why the change? I personally think more and more people are realizing that a bow with a decent ATA and brace height, coupled with a forgiving cam design just shoots better for them. And, it is certainly no fun to sit in a tree in cold weather for 3 hrs or more and then try to get your bow back if it has a nasty FDC, THEN try not to creep a 1/32, because if you do the arrow is gone or your shoulder becomes toast, or both...All for what--- an extra 20-40 or even 60 FPS at 20-30 yds? LOL.
Most hunters in the USA hunt whitetails, so huge buckets of KE isn' t necessary either. Even Elk can be taken with comparable equipment. So IMHO all of the speed/energy hype is just that. Fun to watch go thru a chrono, but otherwise pretty much useless unless you are hunting Rhino or other massive game. In which case you will shoot an 80lb bow anyway. I have noticed that even Bowtech has opted to increase their brace heights slightly and incorporate a little less " nastiness" to their cam designs in the past couple of years. Kevin and the rest of the crew here at " bowtechnet.com" [&:]:D can certainly tell you more on this but it seems to be the case. This brings their overall actual speeds down to roughly the same level as many other manufacturers, and consequently I see they are now leaning away from the speed hype marketing technique and to the " new" sales gimmick/marketing strategy of lesser vibration/quietness with the introduction of the VFT. Good move IMHO. Smooth shooting and great handling bows will IMHO be the predominant characteristics of future designs for all manufacturers, this I am sure of. In fact many manufacturers are already there and are selling well! Altho speeds will forever increase with time, IMHO we have pretty much settled into an " acceptable range" for at least a few years until both technology and materials once again can give us room to advance. JMHO, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
The 04 Patriot hits peak at about 6.5" into the draw cycle, but starts dropping off faster than last years cams. I' ve pretty much narrowed my focus down to this bow, the new Merlin bow that we only know will be 33" ATA, a Darton AE or something else they' ll offer and wait see what Diamond brings to the table... And I still want to draw a Liberty. That' s pretty narrow, right? :D Looks like a great time to be in the market for a new bow... By the way, Pinwheel was nice enough to email me a graph plotting Merlin' s Omega Cam FDC, but I' ve got no idea how to post it as an attachment or anything. Hell, I can' t even print the whole page out :(. I' m such an idiot... I can forward it to someone literate if they' ll be so kind to post it somehow... Any takers? |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I finally got the Merlin FDC graph to print out, had to export it to paint, invert it then print. I can' t believe I figured out how to do all that. I' m at work, and it' s not like I could ask for tech support here in the office :)
The graph is for the Omega Hybrid cam, 60# bow with a 7" brace and a 28" draw length. The draw ramps up to 55# over the first 7" , then gradually climbs from 55# to hit 60# peak 8" later at 22" , then rollercoaster drops (best way to give you a visual, the first big hill) 5" to 27" , and provides an inch of valley to the wall at 28" . If it wasn' t for guys I wholeheartedly trust like Pinwheel, Blackfrog and Saggitarius stating how smooth this cam system was, honestly, based on how it looks on paper and guestimating with the tape measure test, I would suspect the FDC would be perceived as harder to pull than those who hit peak earlier in the FDC... I wish I could draw one versus buying one on a leap of faith, but I know those guys wouldn' t steer us wrong. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
And, it is certainly no fun to sit in a tree in cold weather for 3 hrs or more and then try to get your bow back if it has a nasty FDC, THEN try not to creep a 1/32, because if you do the arrow is gone or your shoulder becomes toast, or both.... What I am really happy to see is that Bowtech is now able to get those same great speeds without sacrificing things like a long brace height (Patriot DC...7 5/8 inch brace height...330+ IBO and a decent valley this year) or a smooth draw cycle (Patriot SC has an even smoother draw cycle this year while the speed rating has gone up to around 325 fps). It definitely is nice to finally be able to have your cake and eat it too. :) |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Range,
Is this the chart you wanted to post?  |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Why Yes, yes it is...
:) Thanks. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
ORIGINAL: Pinwheel 12 I think that the realization that speed certainly isn' t everything is finally coming to the forefront. Many of us used to play the speed game back in the late 80' s and early 90' s, and some who were just coming into the sport saw this and simply thought that they too had to have the fastest mousetrap made, and carried the tradition on for another " generation" . Hence we contrinued to see many " rat-trap" designs with nasty cams and low brace heights, etc, etc. This mentality is definately waning(finally) in recent years IMO-- guys now want smooth, easy drawing designs that offer competitive speed. Why the change? I personally think more and more people are realizing that a bow with a decent ATA and brace height, coupled with a forgiving cam design just shoots better for them. And, it is certainly no fun to sit in a tree in cold weather for 3 hrs or more and then try to get your bow back if it has a nasty FDC, THEN try not to creep a 1/32, because if you do the arrow is gone or your shoulder becomes toast, or both...All for what--- an extra 20-40 or even 60 FPS at 20-30 yds? LOL. Most hunters in the USA hunt whitetails, so huge buckets of KE isn' t necessary either. Even Elk can be taken with comparable equipment. So IMHO all of the speed/energy hype is just that. Fun to watch go thru a chrono, but otherwise pretty much useless unless you are hunting Rhino or other massive game. In which case you will shoot an 80lb bow anyway. I have noticed that even Bowtech has opted to increase their brace heights slightly and incorporate a little less " nastiness" to their cam designs in the past couple of years. Kevin and the rest of the crew here at " bowtechnet.com" [&:]:D can certainly tell you more on this but it seems to be the case. This brings their overall actual speeds down to roughly the same level as many other manufacturers, and consequently I see they are now leaning away from the speed hype marketing technique and to the " new" sales gimmick/marketing strategy of lesser vibration/quietness with the introduction of the VFT. Good move IMHO. Smooth shooting and great handling bows will IMHO be the predominant characteristics of future designs for all manufacturers, this I am sure of. In fact many manufacturers are already there and are selling well! Altho speeds will forever increase with time, IMHO we have pretty much settled into an " acceptable range" for at least a few years until both technology and materials once again can give us room to advance. JMHO, Pinwheel 12 You can have speed and accuracy both in the same bow and I' m sure those two qualities will never go out of style:D |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Maybe I don' t have my glasses on correctly [8D], but it looks to me like the Omega cam peaks very late in the draw cycle (at least according to that chart..blue line, correct?). I' ve seen the DFC for the Maverick w/ CPS Express, and it peaks a few inches sooner. I believe the C.5 and Omega are more similar in that respect (peaking later than the Darton, which is easy to tell when comparing my C.5 bows to my Maverick). I' ve handled the Rapid cams from Merlin on a Max3000 and they peak very early (I guess it had the target mods, though it was a camo hunting model).
I don' t mind a late peak whatsoever as long as the transition is smooth, which BowTech thankfully really improved upon in 2003 (on the singles). My new (2003) ExVFT peaks late but the transition into the valley is very comfy, noticeably moreso than the previous Infinity & BT post feed cams. 2004 cams are supposed to be even better. The same or better speed? good brace? smoother cams? Sounds good to me :D |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I wish I could find Norb' s review of the Darton Rampage and post the curve for the CPS cams, but I can' t locate it.....
Anyone have that review that could scan that plot and post it? |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I' ve searched all over the net, and can' t find it anywhere... The only Darton FDC graph I could find was for the CPS Extreme I linked above, but no idea what bow it' s on, appears to have a 9" brace based on where the graph starts, and to my knowledge, the only bows this cam is currently offered on is the Avalanche, Maverick and Magnum, all of which have lower brace heights...
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Norb' s review of the Rampage was one of the regular bow reviews he does for BowHunting World magazine. I don' t think it' ll be on the net anywhere- I was hoping someone might have the copy laying around yet.
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Range,
It starts at 9” because a few years ago Norb wrote in one of his reports something about the fact that the way his machine was built/ designed it did not plot early enough on the “new” low brace height bows w/ highly reflexed risers or something to that effect. I don’t remember the issue or even year..could be 5 years ago for all I know. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
I checked BHW' s website, no reviews archive I could find, so I sent editor Mike Strandlund an email asking if it was available anywhere.
Hopefully he' ll reply soon. |
RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
It has been a while since I looked at that magazine, but there used to be a page in every one where you could order the reports directily from Norb himself. $3 plus postage, as I recall.
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RE: FDC, What a difference it makes?
Joe, that' s the exact response I just received from Mike Strandlund. I' ve also sent Darton an email, and will wait to hear their response before considering ordering a copy...
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