Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Since I have shoulder problems I cannot pull more than a 50 pound draw weight. I currently am using a 45 draw weight. So my question is which bow would yield the fastest arrow speed when set at 50 pounds?
Trying to take IBO speeds and adjust down doesn' t always work since each bow has different characteristics. I could use the general rules of thumb (10fps/1" draw length, 2fps/1 pound draw weight) but they did not work out on my Firestorm Lite (off by about 15fps). So I would like not a calculated or estimated speed but real speed that someone has measured with a chronograph.

My requirements are:
draw length 28"
draw weight 50#
letoff 80% (can' t handle 65%)
arrow weight 334gr

My Firestorm Lite currently shoots a 334gr arrow at 219fps with 28.5" draw at 50#. I need to change my length to 28" so my FSlite will end up at 214fps. With it set at 45lbs this hunting season I am getting 209fps.

Also, I do not want to drop my arrow weight. This a whole other discussion I would rather not get into in this topic.

I would really like to be able to shoot 250fps+. I know there must be a bow out there that can do this.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

Well both bows I was going to suggest are not 80% let off[:' (]

I was going to suggest either the Bowtech Black Knight or the Patriot Dually.

The ExVFT would Be a good choice as it has 80% let off, smooth to draw and fast not as fast as the above two but the fastest single that Bowtech put out.

As too the speed you would get I dont know maybe if Kevin reads this thread he will fling some arrows through the crono at your specs;)

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

Corb, I' ve got bad shoulders too. You need to readjust your thinking and forget about having a super flat trajectory.

In my experience, no matter how low the draw weight, the fastest possible bow is going to cause problems. To get the speed you MUST go to a hard pulling cam, one that jumps up to peak draw and makes you haul the string through that heavy draw for-freakin' -ever. And, with those hard pulling cams, the high letoff is a killer when you hit that sudden breakover into the letoff.

If you' ll go to a round wheel or mild cam bow, one that eases up to peak draw weight and then eases you down into the letoff, you won' t experience nearly as much pain and discomfort. And that is not going to be a super fast bow. But, the good news is you might be able to regain some speed because you' ll probably find out you can handle a good bit more draw weight than you can with a hard cam.

That is exactly what I' ve done. I can shoot my round wheel bow at 65% letoff with NO discomfort, whatsoever.

Injuries suck! It' s not fair, but you' ve got to play the hand that' s dealt to you.

I wish you the best of luck.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

You might also want to consider a smoother drawing bow that still maintains a high IBO rating. Like the new Bowtech Liberty, Merlin with Omega, Darton with CPS, Parker with EZ Draw cam, etc. Heck, look at the Jeff Murray add for Mathews, he' s complaining of needing a lessor draw weight due to shoulder issues, and says the LX draws so smooth he can draw more weight with it :)

I know you don' t want calculations, but there all I got, and most of the above listed bows have a reputation for delivering their stated speeds. I found with my bow, the rules of thumb of 1 fps for every 5 grains didn' t really work, more like 1.5 fps through a range of 350-500 grain arrows. Using this I can estimate within a few fps of the chrono reading. I also only have 2 brass nocks on my bowstring.

Assuming a smooth drawing bow at 50#s with an IBO of 305ish (hits most of those above), Potentially you could hit that with a 250 grain arrow. With your 84 grain heavier 334 grain arrow, you could expect to lose around 25 fps due to arrow weight, and another 15 or so due to draw length. That would put you at 40 fps less than IBO, or around 265.

If possible I' d visit some shops and draw some of the smoother drawing bows available, and see what you think your shoulder could actually handle, and go from there...

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

I believe that Art P has summed it up quite well. Pay it now, or pay it later.

Regardless of manufacturer claims or the claim made by a shooter sponsored by a manufacturer, when it comes to bows there is always a price to pay for increased energy and stored energy. As Art has said, (paraphrased) let-off is not draw-weight. You still have to pull the bow through the draw-weight. Many of today' s hard-cam bows are joint killers. They hurt me and my shoulders are fine.

A 39" + ATA " wheel" bow, or the " ultra-sonic wheel " like the one produced by Martin, pulls smooth through the entire draw range and do not jerk your socks off on let-down. Based on personal experience, either design will do the job and do it quite well.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

Corb, my wife' s Pro 40 Dually at 55 pounds and 26 inch draw does an even 260 fps with a 339 grain arrow. Look at the ' 03 BKII tall brace in a 50 pound peak weight model, they draw stiff but very smooth. Turn that baby down to 45 and shoot a 300 grain arrow and live happily ever after:D

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

I am surprised that nobody has suggested the Pro40 wheelie yet. It has a relatively smooth draw cycle and yet still has a relatively high IBO rating. That should give you both good arrow speed and a manageable draw cycle.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

ArthurP,

I' m not that worried about the draw curve. I' m more worried about the holding force so the letoff is more critical for me.

So given that I can draw 50#, I am looking for the fastest bow at a 50# peak draw weight.


Rangeball,

My measurements are a little different. I chronographed my arrows with both 75 and 100 grain heads to see the speed difference. I got exactly 5fps with my setup. But that is my point I guess, each bow will react differently to draw length/weight changes as well as arrow weight changes.

So my FSLite at 300 IBO looks like: -40fps (50#), -15fps (1.5" draw), -15 fps (fletch, rest, string loop, peep) for a result of 230fps. Add 3fps for the lighter arrow and I should see 233fps. I chrono at 218 - 219.

This is why it would be nice to get some insight from either a bow designer or someone who has setup and chronographed a lot of different bows to see which bows are the best performers at 50#.


Walks with a gimp,

The BKII looks good on paper and I was looking at that plus the ExVFT and the Tech 29. But as I mention above, taking the IBO speeds and trying to guess which bow will do better at low poundage doesn' t always work. The BKII is so fast it' s hard to believe that it will not do well at 50#. Sure would be nice to know though, instead of guessing :)



To All Bow Manufacturers,

Bowtech does a great job in their manuals showing the IBO speed derating curve based on draw length. It would be nice to also have a derating curve for draw weight changes. This would make it much easier to compare products and select the best bow for the application. Not many dealers (or ANY dealers?) will setup 10 bows for you to your draw length/weight, add a nock and rest on each bow, and then let you chronograph them all. This information has got to be easy for a manufacturer to produce.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

[quote]Rangeball,

My measurements are a little different. I chronographed my arrows with both 75 and 100 grain heads to see the speed difference. I got exactly 5fps with my setup. But that is my point I guess, each bow will react differently to draw length/weight changes as well as arrow weight changes.

So my FSLite at 300 IBO looks like: -40fps (50#), -15fps (1.5" draw), -15 fps (fletch, rest, string loop, peep) for a result of 230fps. Add 3fps for the lighter arrow and I should see 233fps. I chrono at 218 - 219.

This is why it would be nice to get some insight from either a bow designer or someone who has setup and chronographed a lot of different bows to see which bows are the best performers at 50#. [quote]

Corb, I agree, however their are a TON of bows out there that can' t produce anywhere near their advertised IBO. The bows I mentioned have a reputation for delivering stated speeds, to the best of my knowledge. I' m not familiar with PSE, so I don' t know where on the spectrum they fall.

I wholeheartedly concur... I wish Bowtech would go this extra step, and all other manufacturers would jump on the band wagon.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

Kevin, I' m new to this forum and don' t know you but I take it you work for Bowtech? So, wanna fling some arrows for me? Maybe you guys already have this information from your internal testing?

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

RB,

BowTech allready does go to that extra step. Check out the downloadable manuals at www.bowtecharchery.com

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

Pretty well covered here. BK is gonna be the fastest, but doesn' t posess the letoff you seek Corb. My reccomendations fro the BowTech line would be the ExVFT and the 2004 Patriot singlecam. RB mentioned some other good manufacturers to try..Darton in particular.

P.S. Kevin Strother. VP of Engineering/Designer for BowTech has been posting here on the boards in the BowTech threads.:D

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

So what is the letoff on the wheelie? I am guessing 65% now that you guys mentioned it but I could be mistaken.

Throw my vote in for the ' 04 Pat SC when letoff is factored in.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Frank, The Wheely has either 80% or 65% mods. Whichever one prefers. The advertised speeds are tested at 80%.

In the owners manuals, BowTech rates their bows at 70 lbs. (unless that particular model doesn' t come in 70 lbs). When a 60 lb. model is built and tested it' s rated 4-6 fps. slower than the 70 lb. and a 50 lb. model is rated 7-10 fps. slower.

These tests are done using a 5 grain per pound arrow.

Corb, If draw force isn' t a factor, I' d look at the Extreme VFT. It can be set at 80% let off or less if so desired.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Ah..after readiong Pat' s post, I see you meant different poundages as well RB. I thought you meant just different draw lengths. My apologies.:)

Thanx for clearin' that up Pat.:D

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

I understand Jeff, it' s early in the mornin' ...:D;) Oh but wait... That post was written last nite... No excuses Jefro...[>:];):D

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

So be it. Sorry I butted in.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds
 

So based upon everyone' s replies and JeffB' s post on the 2004 Bowtechs, it looks to me like the Extreme VFT or the 2004 Patriot VFT, at least on paper, would be the main contenders in the Bowtech line.

So does anyone have either one of these bows that they can set down to 50# and see what the speed derating looks like?

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Jeff, I' m glad you cleared that up before I had to go check for myself, again :D

For some reason, I can' t view all the PDF owner' s manuals, they are too low on the page and the page doesn' t load with a scroll bar. Plus, the last time I looked, the one I could get to and download was for the 2002 model year... I don' t know what' s wrong.

For what it' s worth, I assume the part I can' t get to is also where they keep the catalouge request link, cause I can' t find it anywhere on their site...

Can someone help a guy out? :)

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Arthur,

I wasn' t tring to dismiss your guidance here. It is just that I don' t feel much discomfort when drawing 45-50lbs but I feel the strain while holding the bow at full draw. I' m sure you are right in that a draw force curve could be so excessive that it will cause me unnecessary stress and pain. I did draw a Bowtech at my dealer (I forget the model) and the draw curve was hard but the breakover was wonderful. I could hold that bow set at 50# easier that I could hold my Firestorm Lite at 45lbs.

For me, an ideal draw curve would be no force for the first part of the pull. My maximum pulling strength is about 3/4 of the way into the draw. This is where I can exert the most force with the least strain. So you are correct, the curve will matter to some degree.

I am certainly not a speed freak and could never be:) But 210fps is a bit slow. If I can flatten my trajectory to ensure that 5yd estimation errors are negligible then I will be happy.

So, all I was trying to say is that I am setting my max draw weight at 50# and will probably never exceed that. Given this, and the fact that different bows will have different efficiencies at low draw weight and IBO speeds cannot be used to predict the performance, I am trying to find a fast bow at 50lbs.

But you are right, I do not want a bow that is going to cause me shoulder problems now or in the future.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Corb,

I set up a 2003 Extreme VFT at 50 lbs. (it' s a 60 lb. model turned down) 28" draw at 80% let off.

I tested it with a brass nock and hush kit on the string using a 326.3 grain, 3-39 A/C/C arrow .

I shot 4 arrows and the speeds posted were 262 fps., 262 fps., 261 fps. and 262 fps.

Keep in mind, that turning the 60 lb. model down to 50 lbs. lost a little speed as did having the cam a little out of time from turning the poundage down and not re-timing the cam.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Wow!

So I would set up the bow with a whisker biscuit and peep and lose a bit of speed but should still be at 250+ fps. This is good news Shooter. I really appreciate the time you took to do this.

So do you have any idea how much arrow weight affects the speed at this poundage? Would you be able to maybe change the broadhead weight by 25 grains and measure the speed difference? I don' t want to overstep my bounds nor take advantage of your goodwill. But the ratio of fps/gr will complete the picture for the ExVFT.

Either way, based upon your testing, I will be going to my Bowtech dealer to test drive this bow and see how the bow draws and feels. I' m sure I can get them to setup the bow with a WB and peep and can bring my chronograph.

Thanks again! As I mentioned earlier, I wish the manufacturers would forget about a single point reference (IBO speed) and provide these real world numbers.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Corb,

Actually, all of my lighter weight arrows all have glue in nibbs.

I' ve got some things to do but, if you don' t mind waiting a little bit, I' ll see if I can find a 100 grain point or a half out insert for my A/C/C' s and put a little bit heavier point in it instead of the 70 grain that' s in it now.

Regards, Pat

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Corb, you mentioned in an eariler post the Tec 29, which is what my wife hunts with and won' t give it up for anything!!! It does 254 fps at 54 pounds and 26 inch draw with a 339 grain arrow. The Tec 29 has a 6.5 inch brace and the Infinity cam has an adjustable 65 to 80 percent letoff. I' d guess you would pick up 20 fps with your 28 inch draw but maybe loose 20 fps by going down to 45 pounds which would put you right at the 254 fps and maybe 264 if you could pull 50 pounds. There might be some ' 03 Tec 29' s around for a good deal. My wife shoots hers very well[:o]

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Sir the Newberry SB1 i can gaurantee you 260+ @50 28" and I do have 80% let off with a super smooth cam and a solid wall

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

I went to a local dealer to check out the bows everyone here has mentioned. He did not have much left in stock and didn' t seem too willling to setup the Bowtech Patriot he had. He no longer has a chronograph because he doesn' t believe in them:(.

So, I went to a dealer about 45 minutes from my house, he had an Extreme VFT with a 28" draw at 60lbs as well as a Mightly Mite and Patriot. The draw on he Patriot and Extreme seemed to be almost identical. The Mighty Mite was much harsher. I asked him to setup the Extreme VFT.

He dropped the weight to 50lbs and put a 2 prong rest on the bow. The bow had the Bowtech string silencers on as well as the vibrablocks plus one nock on the string. I fired my 334 grain arrows through it and got 266 fps:). For the heck of it we changed the 100gr tip to a 75gr and got 276 fps. His chronograph was just calibrated and I also verified that his chrono matches the speed I got from my digital chrono with the 334gr arrow on the Firestorm Lite.

So it IS possible for a light poundage shooter at 80% letoff to some get some decent arrow speeds:D.

I did not get to check out Parker or Darton or others. It' s ok. The ExVFT feels great to me. The shock/jump from this bow is negligible - very smooth feel after release. Much nicer than the FSLite. Less torque, nicer grip, better balance, more stable sight picture. I know some of this is due to the axle length, but still, a nicer shooting bow than what I have. The draw curve is a bit hard and not nearly as smooth as the FSLite but the feel at full draw is great and something I can handle just fine. I may even be able to drop the weight down to 45 lbs and still get 250fps with 334 gr arrows:).

I will have him order the bow for me Monday. He said it will take at least 10 days from Bowtech. I hope Bowtech is not too backed up and can get it out earlier so I can use it this season.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for all your help and advice. I will let you know what happens with the bow I get.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Glad to hear you' ve found something you like:D Good luck with your new toy!!!!

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Forgot to ask, are you going to order a 50 pound max model? I wouldn' t recomend turing down a 60 pound max bow to 45, you will loose effiency and have problems with the limbs in the limb pockets. BowTech dosen' t recomend turning the limb bolts out more than 2 1/2 turns from max.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Corb,

Glad to hear the ExVFT lived up to your expectations. TheExVFT will definitely sling an arrow!:)

I would second WWAG' s suggestion to grab a 50 pound peak weight model. The bow will be a little quieter, more vibe/recoil free, and will likely be several FPS faster too! :D

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

WWAG, JeffB,

Already got that covered guys, I am getting a 50# max peak weight model :)

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

Corb.
When you get the bow we will teach you the secret hand shake;).

Glad we have been able to help you.

RE: Fastest bow at 50 pounds - Bowtech?
 

I think you made a good decision. Though it may not have been my first choice for suggestions it does prove that sometimes it definitely is best to see what feels best for the individual. :)