Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I currently shoot PSE carbons with offset fletch. I have switched to a fall away rest and would like to change over to helical fletch now. I am having some new arrows made and would like to start making the transition with these new ones...my question is....will the tune, sight-in etc be different between the two types of fletch?

D

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I wouldn' t expect it to be, but the archery world is chock full of little mysteries. ;) You won' t know for sure until you get the new arrows but I can practically guarantee that you won' t have any major problems.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Im getting good flight/tune/speed with what I have. Wondering after reading other posts on the difference in the two if I should just leave it as is.

D

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

IMO, all the horror stories about helical fletching are overdramatized and probably invented by guys who are getting fletching contact with their rest with helical. With a dropaway rest, you won' t have that problem.

I' ve never seen any huge difference between helical and offset as far as arrow speed. Even beyond 50 yards, the difference is very small. Where I have seen a noticeable difference is in broadhead accuracy. It' s much better for me with helical.

It' s at least worth a try. That way you can make up your own mind about it. If you don' t like helical you can always refletch to offset.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I think Arthur hit the nail right on the head.

I have always had good arrow flight with straight and offset vanes as well as feathers when using either field points or mechanical broadheads. When I started using Montec fixed blade heads this year my groups opened up an inch or so at 25 yards. Initially attributing it to a tuning issue, I went forth along that route until I was pulling my hair out. Everything seemed to be perfect with FPs and Mechs, but the fixed blades just didn' t group as well.

On a whim I set a few arrows up with a helical fletch and guess what? The fixed blade group sizes dropped back to where the FPs and Mechs were.

The helical and offset fletch arrows hit at the same point of impact out to the point where my aim is more of a contributer than the arrow flight......however I still only sight in with arrows identical to the ones I hunt with.

One note....if you decide to make the switch to helical fletch for hunting, do the deer a favor and stay out of the woods until you are 100% sure you are sighted in. This should be at least 2 days of repeatable shooting with the new setup. If that is not what you are willing to do, then stick with what is working for you until after the season. I am always leary of changes in my setup mid season.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Good advice here. IME using mech' s an offset is quite satisfactory, but a good helical is always a safe bet with fixed blade heads..the more helical the better :D

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Yep, Art did a good job on this one.;) I' ' ve been using a helical for years with shoo-thru rests and have never had a problem with contact. The drop away craze to me is nothing more than that--if you know how to tune correctly and know what to look for,(or know someone who does;)) there is simply no definitive reason to go to a drop away IMHO.

Another thing to think about is the newer " straight and level" nock travel design bows--I can shoot a myriad of different arrow spines out of one and the tuning is a complete snap with all of them! This I also feel will contribute to people being able to find that the tuning woes they have encountered over the past decade with the conventional solo designs will not be anywhere near as apparent, and because the arrow comes out of the bow straight and level, that they can even get away with an offset instead of a full helical on most arrow choices, even on fixed-blade broadheads! I' m currently testing this theory on a couple of S&LNT hunting bows and so far it is producing good results-- flight and accuracy are great with a 3 degree offset out to 60 yds. Who woulda thunk it....:D Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

just what exactly is the diff. between offset(3,4,5degree) and helical?

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Last week I just installed a Bodoodle 3 prong rest...and I' m now using helical fletched arrows instead of 1 degree offset fletched arrows. It was a pain in the @ss trying to get the nock perfectly aligned, so the vanes don' t contact the prongs. I think helicals are good with shoot thrus and dropaways....not good with a 3 prong rest.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

My experience is very similar to redline' s. I spent all spring and summer shooting 4" offset vanes and was very pleased with my accuracy out to 60 yards or so. When I put broadheads on, I expected them to shoot the same since I knew the bow to be well tuned. Surprise--they were low and to the left and not as tight.

After trying numerous fixes, I fletched some arrows with 5" vanes--some with hard right and some with left helicals. To my relief, that fixed the problem. I' m now shooting 5" hard right helicals with a dropaway rest. They shoot slightly to the left of my field points, but very tightly grouped. I' ve adjusted my sights accordingly and have arrows identical to my hunting arrows for practice.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

The helico may be a little slower than the ofset, but should stablize the arrow with a bh on it much faster. I use LW helico clamp for both feathers and vanes. I still find that nothing beats a 5.0 feather for forgiving in shooting 3D or hunting. I even played with some of the mag 5.5 inch and they work well. The only way you will know if they will shoot the same is to shoot the arrows side by side and see..

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I' ve always tuned my fieldpoints and broadheads individually. Why? Because regardless of the fact that they may have identical weight heads, the length of ferrule, along with the differing drag co-efficient of each designs' configuration, (which in turn makes for a differing paradox coming out of the bow) nine times out of ten will NOT group together when tuned correctly. Admittedly a few will, but more often then not you end up " de-tuning" a perfected setup to reach the identical results as opposed to simply tuning individually and getting the best performacne out of a given setup.

Try this---Take a fieldpoint arrow, and tune it to the best of your capability. Shoot it out of a hooter shooter till it hits the same hole at 20 yds, or get them grouping as tight as possible if you are free-handing. Now, shoot a broadhead-tipped arrow out of the same setup without touching anything. Does it hit the same hole WITHOUT any adjustment at all? No, it doesn' t. If it does, you are extremely lucky because you found one of those " one in a million" setups that do. Try it vice versa, tuning the broadheads first, then trying to put a fieldtipped arow into the same hole without adjustment---Most often times, they won' t either. So, what do you do? Leave the configuration for the application at hand at it' s tightest group setting, OR, try to get them to fly the same, turning a perfectly-tuned setup into a " happy medium" one? I do not shoot fieldtips while I' m hunting, nor do I shoot broadheads while I' m playing 3D, therefore there is no need anyway to try and have them fly the same. It only takes about 5 minutes to go from one perfect setting to the other once you know where they fall into the best grouping range. This " getting them to both fly together" IMHO is a big myth that merely got taken for granted, much the same as bare-shaft tuning. (No-one can tell me that an arrow that has no fletching will fly exactly the same as one that does, either, because they have differing drag co-efficients and FOC. If they do, then neither is correctly tuned.) Just a few more tidbits to chew on and keep you guys thinking.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

But Chuck Adams says that' s the way to do it! Of course, he also says ' Buy my tuning kit' complete with the Satelite match points. :D

IMO, he' s the guy responsible for that myth.

I' m also trying to track down the idiot that began the ' perfect bulletholes in paper mean your bow is perfectly tuned' myth.

All kinds of urban legends surrounding this archery business, Pinwheel!

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

So true, Art. So true.;) Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Once I watched a slow-motion video about arrows comming from a bow......
They start spinning some 2 feet after the arrow went over the rest......
This was with off-set vanes.
I was told helical would be better for broadhead tuning, but I can get mine flying deadly strait with off-set vanes to.
I think its in the carbon shaft tho.....
Does anyone still powder their vanes to see IF they scratch the rest?
This is still a well proven method to see if everything passes your bow in good order.....

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Are you guys shooting helicals, able to do it with carbon arrows?

Pinwheel, would you say that the broadheads should hit close to where the field tips do, and if so, how close would you say they should be? It is my belief that if you tune your broadhead separately from your fieldtips and they hit 6" apart at 20 yards, something is wrong. Just wondering what distance would trigger a concern in your mind?

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

SA-

All depends on the amount of difference in drag from the varying components utilized in the individual setups IMHO. I would think you can get them reasonably close, and as mentioned above some MAY even fly " close enough" to the same, but I have yet to see two didfferently configured arrows go into the same hole out of a machine without at least some subtle tweaking. Most of the time I find a impact differential not only in left/right, but high/low also. The paradox is different whenever you change components, no matter how subtle the difference--if you run 1.8" fletch with an offset for 3D, and run 4" helical vanes for hunting, along with a 100 parabolic point versus a 100 grain fixed blade broadhead, yes, they are going to fly different. Physics 101.

Now, for some people, 4-6" groups at 20 yds may be " close enough" --in fact alot of people/places believe/promote that it is good hunting accuracy if one can hit a paper plate (9" ) at 20yds! I personally do not and frown on this type of lunacy. A paper plate at 20 with a recurve and instinctive, maybe, but to me if I or my customers cannot feel comfortable about hitting a 3" or less dot at 20 yds(I personally practice on Vegas target faces with baby X' s) with the compounds/arrows/sights/releases of today, then realistically IMO we have no business being out there to begin with--we owe it to the game we seek to be as accurate as we possibly can, no matter what we shoot. And even tho alot of us are this way, we STILL occasionally lose game, so the extra effort is needed to be as accurate as possible, no question. Using such a benchmark as the one above as an excuse for laziness is unacceptable IMHO. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I don' t think I worded my question very well. I wasn' t really concerned with accuracy. I was trying to find out if the tuning was considered good, even if broadheads grouped 6" away from the grouping from the same arrow with the same weight field tips. I have always found that if, in addition to fine tuning, I tweak for the ideal draw weight for the arrow spine, I get groups with either broadheads or field tips, that are very close to each other. That is, as long as everything else is the same (same fletching, same length, same arrow weight).

In other words, if my grouping for broadheads was 6" away from my grouping with field tips, I would take that to mean that something was off with my tuning, my draw weight, or my actual arrows. I doubt that I' ve ever tuned a bow that had the broadhead groups more then 2" away from the same arrow with field tips. In fact, I would bet that they' re usually within an inch at 20 yards.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

SA-

I also tune the bow to the arrow, not the arrow to the bow. If it takes a turn or two one way or the other to help bring the spine in, then that is what I do, along with other little " tricks of the trade" ;).

Sorry if I misunderstood your original question---yes, normally most will be within a few inches at 20 yds when appropriately tuned, but this is depending again on the individual configuration--I have seen some broadheads(no names mentioned;)) that were perfectly tuned that impacted over 8" away from a fieldtipped arrow utilizing the same shaft and vanes and tip weight, all due to the blades of the broadhead, their angle, and the differing drag it thus produced. It all goes back to how much a broadhead or vanes or whatever component will affect the flight of the arrow itself due to it' s configuration. One would think that they would all fly close, yes, but if it paradoxes differently and is grabbing air during the paradox with wider blades, it will simply fly differently. Sometimes even much differently. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I' ve shot limited types of broadheads and haven' t experienced anything that far off (8" ) that I couldn' t correct with spine adjustments and tuning. Thanks for the input.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Again, some may be close, some not. Depends on what you call " correct" as far as tuning goes. I have seen many broadhead designs that impact over 2" away from comparable-weight fieldtips when tuned correctly. (shooting them out of a machine to acheive the same bullethole at 20 yds to me is " correctly tuned" --it simply doesn' t get any better or groups any tighter than that)

As stated, if you tune to shooting arrow after arrow into the same hole at 20yds, that is perfect IMHO. And one normally cannot hit the same hole with a differing configuration without moving/adjusting something, (which is my overall point) because then when they go back and shoot the previous arrow, it will not go into the same hole either without " re-adjustment" , and therefore to me tuning for one or the other or both will be " off" , not perfect. That is why I tune to their individual applications and not run them all together. JMHO. Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

I have no experience shooting out of a machine, but I would expect the machine to put the arrow into the same hole repeatedly, even if the tune was off a bit. As long as everything occurs the same with each arrow, it should fly to the same wrong spot, shouldn' t it?

I do agree that the broadhead tipped arrows and field tipped arrows will most likely fly to different spots, just not a radically different spot. I see guys having trouble with their fixed blade broadheads, all the time. However, I seldom see a person tune for proper spine, or turn nocks to get best flight. It seems like most group tune, pay little attention to FOC, and just claim the broadheads don' t fly well. Like I said, maybe I' ve just been lucky, but I' ve always been able to get good groups from my broadheads, that impacted very near my field tip groups.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

No, because the arrows are not of the same configuration, therefore will not hit the same impact spot if shot out of the same machine after one or the other is tuned to perfection. If you adjust from perfect to acheive a happy medium for both, then they will not hit the same hole as either of the previous arrows did when they were tuned to perfection, even tho they may be able to be both tuned to be " close" , as you stated above. Personally, as I also stated, I don' t see any need to even bother trying to get them to fly both " close" to the same anyway, especially if (in theory at least) that by doing so neither setups are then at their optimum, not to mention that most of us who shoot broadheads during hunting season do not shoot fieldpoints out of the same setup during the season. So to me it just seems unnecessary, especially when you can quickly get one or the other to it' s optimum tune from the other in virtually a matter of minutes.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Pinwheel,

I think what SA was saying was (hope I am not incorrect here SA) that since the machine was shooting with completely reroduceable form etc., that it could conceivably shoot arrows into the same hole repeadtedly, even if was the " wrong hole" or that there might even conceivably be several configurations in which the machine would be capable of placing arrows in the same hole repeatedly.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Yes, I' m definitely not communicating well. [&:]

I thought you were referring to all field tips hitting the same hole, if the tune was perfect. I didn' t know you were comparing the tune on a field tip vs a broadhead. I agree that they won' t fly to the same hole, but I would expect it to be close with the right spine, tune, nock position, etc.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

SA-

Nah, it' s probably me, going at the speed of light in a million different directions, and trying to play on the boards at the same time.[:o][&:]:D;)

How' s this--

I agree. [8D] Pinwheel 12

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

LOL, 20 posts later, and we didn' t get anywhere. :D

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

Sorry guys but I disagree. I am shooting a Right Helical(which by the way, is recommended to prevent broadhead planing) and I can get 2" groups of 4 arrows at 30 yds. and I can repeat with the same with Broadheads.

I experimented several things this year. 1st dozen arrows bought had right offset 4" vanes. Broadheads tuned to within 1" of fieldpoint points of contact at 20 yds. After shooting around 1000 shots and arrows going through targets and being hit by other arrows, most needed refletching, so I went to 4" RT helical Feathers. Sights were off left about 3" at 20 yds. I split the knock of one arrow with another and then robin-hooded two. So I picked up another 1/2 dozen arrows. At this time, I didn' t pay attention to the fletching because I refletch my own. These were 4" vanes with an left offset or 2 degree left helical no more. With fieldpoints they flew just as the others, but, with broadheads they were dropping 8" at 20 yds. No left and right movment, just down.

I refletched all of my arrows to have a 4" right helicial feathers and now my broadheads and fieldpoints are hitting the same holes all the way out to 50 yds. I am shooting a 6 degree helical. I have robin-hooded an arrow at 18 yds with fieldtips and have cut fletchings off of others from 25 yds with broadheads.

The arrows are Easton Carbon Evolution 400' s 26 1/2" . 100 gr Thunderheads or 100 gr fieldpoints. Bodoodle 3 prong rest.(takes some tuning to get the correct vane clearance). All on a 2003 Hoyt RazorTec at around 260fps.

RE: Helical vs Offset...Tuning Question
 

If vane or feather clearance is not a problem, then helical fletch should help open blade broadheads shoot more consistently. I have had some setups that shot well with just offset, most often with a shoot-through rest that wouldn' t allow good clearance with helical fletch. Many guys claim to be able to tune well enough that it doesn' t matter. IMO, if you have no clearance issues, then helical can' t be a bad thing. I just got a left helical clamp for my Bitzenburger jig, and some AAE Speedflyte vanes. I am currently pleased with my broadhead accuracy, but it will be interesting to see if there is any improvement, especially with my backup bows.;)