65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

I'm thinking about sending my Hornet back to Diamond for a string/cable change and general tune job, will ask them to install the 29" draw module as well, since our local shop burned to a crisp...

While I'm at it, If possible, I'm considering having the let off module changed to 65%. When you guys order your bows, do you usually go with the 65% module? I'm not concerned about P&Y, I just think the 65% would feel more solid at draw, and give a better feeling release. Whatch ya think?

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Range-

You already said it.

"more solid at full draw"

With 80% and shooting rather high poundage, you can really get the "rip your shoulder off" feeling if you creep forward a little bit at full draw. It's such a drastic change in the ramp up with 80% letoff. Keep in mind this will depend on the draw force curve of the cam system as well....

For hunting it may be nice to have more letoff in case you get stuck with a deer eyeing you up while at full draw and you need to hold for a while. But I don't see any need for me to go over mid-60's in draw poundage to hunt any North American animal. So even then, 65% letoff isn't hard to handle.

For any target shooting, I'll take the lower letoff for a more solid BT release that doesn't feel so light at full draw.

Just my opinion- Best of luck-

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Add to that...

80% is harder to shoot as accurately as 65%. Holding fewer pounds at full draw makes it easier to torque the bow and cause it to angle away from the string's plane of travel. That causes an arrow to do all kinds of wierd things, even from a well tuned bow. Not so much of a problem until you on your cold weather gear, and your gloves cause you to get more palm into the handle than normal.

An extra bonus is you will more than likely pick up a few feet per second in arrow speed and kinetic energy because 65% stores more energy than 80%.

If you've been shooting 80% for a long time, then 65% is going to feel pretty heavy until you get used to it. But I think it's worth it in the long run.

Sorry to hear about your pro shop. Hope they can rebuild.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Just talked with Gary at Diamond Archery. They'll install a new string and cable (#8125), slap on a 65% let off module, check the bow over and tune everything back to factory new condition and ship it back to me same day, for $25!!! Great people, great company... He said they are moving their website, so it's currently down, so the link I listed yesterday won't work. He also said they plan to do some advertising this year. I hope they do, they build a great bow. In addition to their new line of bows for this year they have a cam module that he says gives the feeling of drawing a 2 cam bow. More valley, easier force draw curve, but you give up a little performance. I asked him about the nock travel of the Hornet, he said it was straight, and almost level, close enough that they recommend you set the bow up at 90* to the string... Check these bows out if you're in the market. They put out a quality, quality product...

Edited by - Rangeball on 02/01/2002 14:16:29

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

65%. For all of the reasons above, Art hit my favorite reasoning to a "T". Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

State of Oregon makes it easy for us here. Anything over 65% is against the regs. Fortunately for me I have no problem with that, but then I'm only pully 62#.

Steve

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Hey Rangeball, just wondering if you ever tried tuning the cam to see the difference like you were asking about a while back. I fine tuned mine a couple of twists the other day and smoothed out the breakover quite a bit and even picked up about 3fps in the process. Gary is a great guy along with Josh and the rest of them a Diamond. How many other companys can you get that kind of services direct from at those prices? Can't even buy a string or cam/module for that price hardly much less installed and tuned. Most of them don't even like to talk direct to the bow owner. Just wish they were not so busy making other peoples stuff to where they could market their own more. Fine bows but not widely known and great people.

Tommy

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

8pt, I sure haven't, I need a bow press bad... I've got the plans downloaded, and building one is on my to do list... That's why I want to send it back to them, to make sure it's done right, then I can make timing marks to keep an eye on things... I agree, good good guys and top notch customer service... If I ever need a new/nother bow, they'll get first look.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

All the other bow companies whose customer service I've had dealings with are definitely second rate compared to that.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

If you use 80% can't you hold longer for your shot?

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Theoretically, but at 70# draw the difference between 80% and 65% is only 10.5# (24.5# at 65% and 14# at 80%)... Not a bunch of difference, and well worth the trade off for steadier aiming and more solid feel at full draw, in my opinion... for $5, I'm gonna go to 65%, as I can always switch back if I don't like it...

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Rangeball be sure to let me know how you like the 65% let off after you get it back. I had thought about giving it a try myself. By the way my Bowmaster portable press is the best 30 something dollar investment I ever made. Works great on my Hornet.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Isn't The power stroke on a cam the same whether it has a 65% or an 85% let off. Why is the more store energy with 65% let off?

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Drew, I'm guessing that the 65% comes up to full poundage a split second longer, allowing more of the bows stored energy to be applied to the arrow on the power stroke... but it's only a guess...

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Actually, it's because the bow doesn't let off as far. That extra 10 pounds that you hold with the 65% wheels goes into the total pounds your bow stores at full draw.

80% holds easier, but you sacrifice stored energy for the easier holding. Not the mention all the other nasties we talked about.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

My work is never done! I shoot 80% and used to shoot 65% I should go back? On a bow like my CyberTec it will effect my draw length by 3/16 of an inch. So I would have to effectively shorten my draw to shoot 65% still worth it?

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

60-65%..ArthurP is dead on w/ every comment...

Too many flyers shooting 70-80% letoff.

JeffB :)

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

If the biggest concern is accuracy, it would seem to me that more important than any particular percentage of letoff reduction, would be a defined draw weight to hold. If one person is drawing 75 lbs with 80% letoff, the holding weight is 15 lbs. If another is drawing 50 lbs with a 65% letoff, then they are holding an almost identical weight - 17.5 lbs. Assuming draw length is the same, both situations should have the same torque at full draw.

Rather than advocate a percentage letoff, I think a particular holding weight would be a more appropriate goal. If a target shooter can be reasonably accurate shooting 50lbs at 65% letoff, then a bowhunter shooting 70+ at 80% letoff, shouldn't be at a significant disadvantage. Does anyone know at what holding weight the negative variables are reduced?

Also, when holding on an animal at full draw for a minute or more, 10 additional pounds of holding weight can indeed be significant. Accuracy can really suffer when you start shaking from a long hold at full draw, while waiting for just the right shot. The few extra fps speed from the 65% cam would be a poor trade off when comparing to the added hold-time of the greater letoff, in my opinion.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Nope, I ain't gonna bite and turn this into a P&Y argument.

I will say that it's a rare individual that can hold for a solid minute, regardless of letoff, and maintain the same accuracy they would have had if they had shot within 15 seconds after drawing the bow.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

I often practice holding my 80% 70lb mathews at full draw for over 3 mins then shooting. That 10 pounds is huge. It is about 40% heavier.

Draw early, hold long and shoot straight.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Arthur,

I don't know what you mean by a P&Y argument. At least my post had nothing to do with P&Y. As far as holding for a minute or more. I can, and have several times on animals. 15-17 pound holding weight is no big deal. 25-30 pounds - now that's another story. I'm sure I can hold the lighter weight for much longer without shaking. For hunting purposes, the high letoffs serve a very useful purpose, regardless of any P&Y issues.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Geezzz!!!!! Where were all you guys when I got my ass blasted by maytom and berreta390 for saying 80% let-off sucked?????? I hope they read this topic and now understand where I was coming from. I'm with you guys 65% is the way to fly.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

80 FOR HUNTING.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Some manufacturers even feel less than that is good, as well. Both Merlin and Martin will be offering 55% options on some of their eccentrics for 2002. Merlin will also be offering the option of hard wall or "mushy" valley, the first-ever option of it's kind on the new Supernova target bow. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

My opinion is that if you have to OVERBOW to get the holding weight you need, then you are screwing up your FORM from the get go and ending up vastly less stable and accurate because your shootin platform is out of line trying to get the silly bow back.

The lower holding weights also have the effects of making you THINK you can hold longer, which you can. Problem is that it is FACT that your mind can only focus on a subject for 8 to 10 seconds MAX before it breaks "lock" and then you have to start concentration all over.
So, if you're holding and supposedly 'aiming' for 10, 12, 15 seconds or more, you're only FOOLING YOURSELF - - becuase you are NOT focused that entire time whether you want to admit it or not. You are really re-starting the engine a couple of times during that long of a holding secquence.

The other problem is when you have heavier poundage to get the holding weight up, you have to knock things out of correct alignment just to get the bow back, then it SLAMS into your anchor rapidly, jerking you into another position, you settle in, realign, and try to stablize things - - losing more valuable concentration timea and increasing your shot sequence time. ALL BAD THINGS.

If, on the other hand you have LOWER poundage, and HIGHER holding weight, then subconsciously, you KNOW that you cannot dilly dally around playing patsy cake with your back tension and you WILL get with the program and execute a shot. The increase in holding weight will also give you a much crisper release and a better follow thru towards the target and it cannot be FAKED.

Look down the shooting line sometime and pay heed to those shooting low holding weights and those shooting the higher holding weight - - I said HOLDING WEIGHT - - if you look at those that are OVERBOWED, you get a different picture all together (a WORSE one, hahha). You will so so much 'fakey brakey' release 'explosions' that are actually IMPOSLSIONS that you ever thought imaginable.

What you'll see is the shot go off, a DEAD release, and then a backwards FORCED and FAKED movement of the release side that LOOKS cool, but the problem is it isn't at the release of the shot, it is a mentally thought out thing to LOOK COOL. I've filmed lots of shooters and pointed it out - - at first they deny they're faking it, but when they see themselve on video - - the proof is in the seeing it!!

Personally, I think 80% is only marginally OK for hunting, 65% OK, but 55% or 50% would be just fine.

People are overbowing a lot for SPEED, and only a small percentage are overbowing for a decent holding weight. The SMART ones are getting the holding weight up there as high as they can handle AND having the draw weight within their limits of CONTROL. They don't go for the SPEED, they go for the consistency, the ability to shoot the bow with the first shot of the day STRONG and the last shot of the day just like the First - STRONG.

VERY FEW can shoot 70 pounds peak weight all day without tiring, but most won't fess up to it.

Enough said, personally I'll opt for the 55% let off, save my shoulders, and not have to watch the arrow chatter across the rest as I try to draw back the bow.

If you have ANY arrow chatter on that rest as you try to draw it, if you have ANY lowering of the drawing elbow, if you have ANY swiveling of the hips, or tightening of the facial muscles as you draw, or if you sky the bow, or grip the release, or tighten up the forearms, or raise the bow shoulder while you are drawing the bow, then you ARE OVERBOWED, plain and simple and you will never reach potential - - NEVER.

field14

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Field14,

Your points are well taken and appear to be the result of a lot of experience, but they seem directed towards target shooting, not hunting. To shoot a 70 lb hunting bow, I don't need to be able to shoot it all day without tiring, just 30-40 practice shots each day and one good shot when it counts. 70 lbs is not a problem under that scenerio. Also, the reason I use 70+ lbs for hunting is not for speed, but for penetration. If I hit the shoulder blade, I want to be sure I still have a good chance at it being a killing shot.

Also, when holding at full draw for a minute or more, there is no "focus" or "aiming" going on for that full time, just waiting for the deer to step into a good opening, then focus, aim and shoot like any other shot. That said, I'm quite sure that when I can no longer handle 70 lbs for hunting, I will go to the lower letoff bows. I agree that holding 10 lbs on full draw would be too little.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Straightarrow, usually whenever someone has used the 'advocate' word, P&Y seems to come along right behind it. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way. I've been hanging out on the fight site lately and I'm a little punchy.

Those of us that understood have been telling people for years, and getting visciously flamed for it (as OHarcher seems to have discovered), that people have been sold a bill of goods with high letoff. They didn't come out with high letoff to improve shooting, enhance accuracy or be more effective on game. They came out with it to sell bows. I've never been able to believe that the high letoff and speed crazes could ever cohabitate the same fad!

Quite frankly, I believe the usefullness of being able to hold a long time with game in front of you is more smoke and mirrors. I know some people have done it and gotten their deer. But it's far better to learn the proper time to draw on a game animal to get the shot off quickly without a lot of undo holding. I guarantee, many bad hits can probably be tracked down to someone holding for too long, letting buck fever creep into their mind and blowing their concentration.

Field 14's response is perfect. That ought to be required reading for everyone.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Field 14 is right on the money. I shoot 65% for slightly more speed and a definate wall. I use it for targets and hunting.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Yep,Field 14 drilled it. Far too many people have been duped into this type of thinking by others and lots of hype and advertising, but some of us know (and see) the real deal every day. I can't count the number of shooters that come into the shop that are still drawing higher poundages and cannot control it. Amazing. Back in the early 80's it was even worse and is probably what started it all, there were no limitations for 3D shooting, so everyone was competeing with 85# bows and 200g arrows to get the most speed out of their aluminum shafts, then going out and trying to hunt with the same setup that fall. The 80% letoff started there,(Mountaineer Archery) as a way to make pulling the higher weights that people THOUGHT they needed easier. Then of course the safety restrictions were implemented,(5g per lb) carbon arrows came out, and there was no further need to pull trememdous amounts of weight anyway. Slowly people have come back to earth and are getting back into a bow that truly fits them and can be controlled, but there are still alot of "macho" guys out there that simply cannot see themselves pulling 50lbs, which honestly is what some of them should be pulling. Do this test and see--- sit in a chair, with your bow out to the side you draw from. Reach out and grab the string, pick your feet an inch or so off the floor, and in one fluid movement draw the bow from rest to anchor. I do this with customers, and it's amazing what kind of weight most guys need to get down to to be comfortable. No shaking, straining, etc, like Field 14 stated above. When you are at a correct drawlength and correctly bowed, you will become a much more proficient shooter. 55-65% letoff will definately serve to keep one more "honest" about this, as well as having more tension through the system which makes for less human-error accuracy problems. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 02/09/2002 06:36:43

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

If a person can easily handle 70+ lbs, would you guys still recommend the lower letoffs? I guess I'm still looking for a holding weight number that is adequate to reduce torque. Is there a number or is everyone different?

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

for normal shooting I like the feel of something around 65-70% for hunting in really cold weather I like that 80%!

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Straightarrow--

You may be able to DRAW 70lbs and comfortably hold with 80%, but I highly doubt that you will be as consistent a shooter as you would if you shot a 60lb bow with 65%, simply because 1)You will have much less slop in the system which will help accuracy, and there is basically no need to be drawing 70lbs for anything but the largest of North American game nowadays anyway. 2) You can get just as much speed by utilizing carbon arrows at 60lbs, and enough KE at 60lbs to hunt virtually all game here in the States. Of course, if you want to hunt huge species, you will need heavier draw weights and more KE, but this is called "specialized applications".

Fact-- back in the 80's, more bows were sold in the 60-70 and 70-80 range.(and even some in the 80-100lb range were not all that uncommon!) Nowadays, more bows are sold in the 50-60, and 60-70 range, mostly 50-60. Few companies even offer the 80lb bows anymore, and only a few offer "African poundage" bows in the 100lb range for specialized use. 80% bows were the rage,(and still are to some extent) but manufacturers have quickly also developed 65% mods for them not only for P&Y issues but because they realized the shooter-error input was greater on the 80%. As stated, now some are dropping back to 55% options. Something to chew on.

I believe that 55-65% letoff greatly helps eliminate shooter error due to lesser slop in the system, however I do not know where the numbers fall off and go the other way, somewhere in the middle I would imagine. That would be the area where you would then have too much holding weight even though you could safely pull the max draw weight. In technical terms and theory, the lower the letoff is, the less slop in the system, so the shooter error aspect in relation to this would assumably be affected down to 0% provided one could control the max draw weight. (lower letoff would be better no matter what, in other words) Unfortunately most cannot comfortably hold that high of a holding weight, so there has to be a compromise somewhere, I'm thinking anything less than 50% and it would probably go the other way. Without true comparasons I cannot say for sure. (maybe grounds for some new testing!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I do know one thing, 65% is much better for ME than 80%, and I'm looking forward to shooting the 2002 55% option on the new Merlin Supernova when they are released! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Well, you guys have convinced me to consider 65% letoff on my next bow, instead of the 75% I have now. :) I'll have to think about reducing draw weight to 60 from 70 lbs. It's those less than perfect hits, I'm worried about. I'm not sure I want to give up the K.E. when those occur.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

I didn't choose 65% the state did that for me .so I had to change the bow .

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

I also have a personal opinion on let-off.
I would like to reiterate &quot;Personal&quot;.

I feel that, based on my experience, my bout with target panic came on with a bow that had high let-off. I figure I started aiming &quot;too&quot; long.

In the old days 50% let-off was the norm and if you shot a bow with over 60 lbs. of draw weight you were an animal.

Most people I shot with were using bows with 50% let-off and set on about 55 lbs. Also, 28 inch draw seemed to be the average draw length.

Now it is 70 lb bow with 80% letoff and a 30 inch draw, probably an inch or more too long for most people.

Like I said in the beginning, I felt like I was aiming when before I just pointed and seemed to have more control with a lower let-off bow. That is why I went back lower let-off. I was more accurate.

It didnt have anything to do with being able to hold longer to be accurate. It was all about not holding too long for me.

Hope that makes some kind of sense.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Straightarrow,

With todays modern bows at 65% let off and less poundage: the less than perfect hit will be no different than 75% let off. Remember the 65% let off increases stored energy which increases speed slightly. Once you shoot 65% next to 75% you can hardly tell the difference anyway. You will have no trouble even if you just reduce your draw wieght to 65#. One of your best judges of KE is arrow speed. You should always chonograph your set ups and know what speed you are shooting. IMO anything over 280 fps is less forgiving.

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

Bob, I can completely tell the difference, 65% is far better from my point of veiw, but as for anyone esle that want's to shoot the higher let off, by all mean's, I just won't do it. I picked up a mathew's with low let off and it almost ripped my arm off letting it down. I am an olympic style recurve shooter, and the higher letoff's make me shake like a leaf while aiming on a target. 65% is solid, every movement you make is solid, and the sight window is solid, with small clean circles around the bullseye. I picked up and shot a hoyt tec something a rather at the local range, I beleive it had 80% letoff with 70# draw, It made me shake like a dead leaf, I've picked up other bow's with 65% and after you are at full draw, you get good strong back tension, and everything feel's right, for me anyways. That's my thoughts on the letoff of topic.
Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
 

65% , it has better performance than 80, it is easier on the shoulder, and has a better valley/wall feel to me.