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RE: CUT ON IMPACT HEADS?
 

Navy, just want to point out some pretty good research that has been done by Dr. Ashton. You may want to take a look at it. It was discussed here on the thread. Don' t know if it answers your question or not, but it provides some real data.


http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.as...ode=&s=#372007

RE: CUT ON IMPACT HEADS?
 

If COI heads penetrate much more readily when pushing, shouldn' t they also when shooting? Makes sense to me, I' ve never understood why some doubt this...

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Navy, what' s your point? If you shoot a broadhead at the same velocity as a slug, I' m betting the broadhead would out penetrate. Noone is saying chisel heads won' t penetrate, they just don' t penetrate as well.

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Or if you put a cut on contact blade on a slug and compared it to a normal flat slug, which one wolud penetrate better???

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Here' s the test/study you are looking for...

http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/

RE: CUT ON IMPACT HEADS?
 

But isn' t shooting really just pushing, only faster? Bow string " pushes" the arrow shaft, right? Rapidly expanding gases " push" a bullet or slug, right?

I' m only trying to apply common sense, of which my wife says I have very little :)

It just makes sense to me that if it takes less pressure to " push" a COI head through hide than a chisel tip head, why should that change if you are " pushing" faster? Why would the " pushing" force suddenly make a difference that allows the chisel tip to penetrate better?

Properly place, on a whitetail, I don' t think it makes a difference, both heads will do the job. Apparently according to Dr. Ashton' s real world testing, shooting a cape buffalo with both styles, one head clearly comes out the winner.

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Navy, you' re comparing 2 totally different grains. That' s not apples to apples.

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Penetration on a live animal will be greatly effected by the sharpness of the blade. Cut on Impact heads are sharp to the tip. Chisel point tips depend on tearing until the blades reach the hide. An extremely sharp cut on impact head will lose very little energy getting through the hide and flesh. When encountering bone, it' s possible the chisel point would then work better. It may be better at breaking bone (just a guess).

Study Dr. Ashby' s evidence and see if you agree.

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The only test I have is on the real thing. I shot two deer last yr with my muzzy 125s. Arrows in both deer penetrater no more than 10 in actually less. I took one deer so far ths year with my simmons sharks 160 gr. and it zipped through the deer like warm butter. And left a blood trail a blind man could follow.
Check out 5shots broadhead test results.

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What is all this " herdin' " going on? [:@]

It has been known since the warming of the ice age and rarely disputed by the " salts," that " cut-on-contact" heads penetrate better and maintain more energy during penetration than, chisel points and coned points, and that chisel point out perform coned points, but that all three types will do the job; but certain types usually do better than other types.

If it was not for the small diameter and very pointed chisel point with short length (not height) blades, I would be shooting " cut-on-contact" heads off my recurve, because COC heads are going to penetrate much better when shot by a low fps/KE bow.

You can argue until doomsday, but the physics will remain and rule.

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My foam broadhead target says the COI heads out penetrate;).

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I feel it really depneds on several things. First what material we are talking about, the type of bow and arrow setup, and the specific broadheads. In bone the chisel tips to better when shooting moderate to heavy equipment. In hide the two blade cut on contacts do better, the three blade cut on contacts are about half way between. The two blade cut on contacts with bleeders do well until the bleeders hit, then they slow down some. In animals two blade heads have the potential to penetrate better out of the same setups. One reason is that they do slip through the hide easier, then 2nd is that they can slip between ribs, where a multi-blade head can' t. If a two blade goes between the ribs you will gain more penetration into vital tissue right off the bat. combine that with the cut through hide easier and you get better penetration. In my testing I have found little differnce in penetration between the two styles, but my tests are not animals. Bottom line smaller = better penetration, the fewer blades or the smaller the total cutting surface the better your penetration. For most setups I think it' s moot point, not worth the worry. for low Ke setups like those used by women and young hunters or for traditional shooters, I think the two blade cut on contact heads gives them the potential to get better penetration, and with these setups you need every edge you can get.

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Navy, I' m interest to know what you were able to get from the research furnished to you from Dr. Ashton. I hope you were able to read it. It seems quite informative.

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He wouldn' t get the chance. I' d float like a butterfly and pee like a scared little girl... :)

I guess we' ll have to agree to disagree. I think Mike could push anyone with his punching motion, and duplicate the same " push" only much faster to become a punch. It' s all in the application of force behind the object being pushed.

For the record, I am shooting Rocket Meteorites this year, with the pointed pathfinder chisel style head. In whitetails with modern equipment pushing good ke levels, I don' t think head style will make much of a difference, provided the bow is tuned well and shot accurately. In a large buck, shoulder hit, I would love the added insurance of a COI head, as I believe based on Dr. Ashton' s study it has the best chance to get the job done. Whether or not it would be overkill depends on the individual situation.

It sounds like you have chisel tips all tuned up and ready to go. If so, I wouldn' t worry to much about it. What I gleaned from the Ashton study was that on any hit except thick bone (shoulder) you' ll get the job done on whitetail size and design animals. The shoulder hit can impede multi-blade penetration, which the majority of chisel tip heads have.

That reminds me of a shot I took in my younger days. I was shooting a McPherson 3rd generation inner cam (before Matt sold the company), pushing a heavy aluminum shaft with a 150 grain PSE chisel tip 4 blade head about 180 fps, really smoking it. Bow was tuned, and arrows flying straight. I wasn' t using a release or sights, and had been practicing religiously to at least be proficient.

I found a spot that was getting a lot of activity, so I sat down on a stump about 15 yards off the trail. 20 minutes later, a nice 1.5 year old 8 pointer comes along, I draw, and he stops dead in my shooting lane and looks at me. Shaking like crazy, I pick my spot and let fly. Arrow smacks the deer square in the shoulder, and BOUNCES STRAIGHT BACKWARDS. Deer runs off, I retrieve my arrow, I got about 1/2" of penetration.

I' m not saying the outcome would have been better with a COI head, but I believe it would have had more potential to get the job done.

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The pro shop was playing an interesting ad video by Steelforce one day. They had what looked like a Morrell bag target setup with a big foam block several yards behind it. They were shooting Steelforce, Muzzy 100 3-blade and Rocket Steelheads into the bag on carbon arrows from a 70 pound compound. The Muzzy and Rockets both came to a screeching halt after penetrating a few inches. The Steelforce zipped through the bag like it wasn' t even there and stuck in the foam block. Then they shot the Steelforce at the bag with a 50 pound recurve. Again, it zipped through the bag and stuck in the foam block.

Of course, Rocket would' ve just been using the foam block to ' prove' their heads penetrate deeper than Steelforce. But having to use a tape measure to tell the difference in penetration from one head to the next in a block of foam is one thing. Seeing one head stopped cold in a target and the other one whiz through that same target and keep on truckin' ...even from a bow that puts out a LOT less energy.... That' s impressive. ;)

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Since the PRIMARY purpose of a broadhead is not to penetrate dense bone -nor metal, wood, or rubber, and the ongoing debate is based on STANDARD PENETRATION performance and values of a hit in the universally accepted " kill zone" of a live and aqueous target, all other penetration aspects, especially unscientific experiments that fall outside the primary design purpose, should be considered to be inconsistent variables that can occur, but are outside the norm. Therefore, the argument must principally be based on the commonly accepted standard i.e., a hit in the universally accepted " kill zone" with an arrow shot from low AND high-energy bows.

Common sense suggests that a sharp-pointed and sharp-edged object that is basically flat, has less surface drag (coefficient of friction) and slices into and through rather than punches into and through, will undoubtedly penetrate easier and more efficiently. Less surface (one pointed blade with two edges vs. a larger diameter semi-rounded point and ferrule with three or four blades) reduces the drag which (drag) sheds off energy rapidly and increasingly.

Does the fact that a slice-on-contact blade will undoubtedly penetrate easier mean that the 2-bladed fixed-blade will always perform better? No! Can a quality fixed-blade bust or penetrate bone? Yes! Is a chisel point or a mechanical blade supreme? Definitely not!

The only reason I use a ferruled head with replaceable blades is that the head tends to plane less and I can change the blades rather than sharpen the blades.

However, after observing the flight characteristics and penetration performance of " Wensel Woodsman" fixed-blades shot from a 50-lb. recurve this past weekend, I may be doing some rethinking.

There have been quite a few analogies given, some that are ridiculous, concerning penetration capability of one type of object vs. another. Try this one on for size.

" Don' t take a chisel to a knife fight. If you do, make sure you also have a sufficiently weighted hammer (KE)." :)

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Would you please start a new thread and expand on this. I' d love to read more about your direct experiences with this head... Thanks.

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Another fun topic as always. How’d I miss this?

I think it’s all relative really, and I see what Navy is getting at, and I agree. In deer sized game with sufficient energy anything will work. For lower poundage setups, short draw lengths, etc your best bet is a cut to the tip head.

I also think more folks should worry about tune, accuracy, shot placement and angles, and what kind of energy they are putting out. If you are not getting pass-throughs on deer sized game (and not contacting major bone) with modern replaceable blade heads, you have a problem somewhere.


That said, I’ve used a few different Cut to the tip heads and I don’t anymore, for several reasons

1) most models plane at the speeds I shoot even w/ big helical feathers
2) weight variance can be atrocious on some, especially after re-sharpening
3) Some designs do very poorly on shoulder or other hard bone hits and “curl”
4) I have a hard time sharpening a pencil.
5) I prefer a 3 blade over a two or four blade design

I wouldn’t mind trying the G5 Montecs, as they seem to offer the best of all worlds. Flight is great at higher speeds, stout design w/ little chance of curling, 3 blades etc. But I shoot a pretty hot set-up and I like the wider cuts of mechanicals, and they work for me. That’s not to say if I had a mechanical broadhead related mishap I wouldn’t consider something else, just that for hunting whitetails IME, I don’t see any need to change.

Now, for larger game, I’d certainly go back to a Wasp Bullet or SST/ Muzzy, the G5’s etc.

Dr. Ashby’s report is a good one and there is plenty of food for thought in it. I haven’t read it in years, but it is interesting reading regardless of whether you agree or disagree with his methodology.

And Arthur….C’mon..let’s look at both sides of the coin here :D..OF COURSE the SteelForce did better in their own video test. Just like NAP’s do better in theirs, Rockets in theirs, WASP in theirs, etc. Geez…are you falling for that stuff like you did w/ the carbon arrow ads? Yeeesh....I thought you were wizened and experienced! That wasn' t a foam block, that was a CINDERBLOCK!..couldn' t you see it?;):D

Seriously, that’s why I like 5 shots reports. Independent testing, and while not based on shooting game, I feel they give a good indicator for actual field experience (and as far as a few of the heads he has tested goes, I would concur w/ his findings based on my own).

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I also was not sure what broadhead to shoot , I had some shockwaves 100 gr, i bought some montec' s 100gr and shot them from the same bow , the same shafts, and into the same target. the shockwaves went right at 75% through, then i took of the shockwave and installed the montec and shot at the same target, in a new place so not to use the same hole, the montec went through the target 100% and put the shaft 5 inches into my backstop, my own test made my mind up on this question . thanks for letting me put in my 2 cents . David,

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There is no doubt that all things being equal a two blade COI head will outpenetrate all other heads. Does this mean they are the best? Not necessarily. I have found that three or four blade heads produce better blood trails. Also unless you are using some of the heavy duty COI heads like the 190 grain Simmons Interceptors they can bend or break with heavy bone contact. I shot a deer 3 years ago with a 100 grain Steelforce and it completely shattered after passing through the ribs on the right side and hitting the offside shoulder. I recovered the deer but there was nothing left of the head but the center ferrule. I have never had a 3 or 4 blade Muzzy do that. Besides penetration with a fixed blade head should be a non-issue with anyone shooting a modern bow of 60 or more pounds and over 27 inches in draw lenght. I' ve read a lot of Dr Ashton' s study but it seems as if its geared more towards game larger than whitetails. If I ever go after a Cape Buffalo in Africa I will heed his advice but for whitetails I think you are better off with more blades and a trocar type tip.

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Rocket testes all there heads at multiple angles and distances on dead animals I dont know what the places are called but its where the take road kill and dead cows etc rocket makes the best mechanical heads in my opinion and the heads have all been tested in this manner you cant beat A rocket mechanical.

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Navy, I still don' t believe that you addressed my question.

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Navy, if you can wait at least 3 years, you' ll have your answers. Dr. Ashton is doing another study, with many of the modern heads in question.

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I suspect it will be similar to the first, the focus and emphasis on larger game. It' s being done in Australia, so what, cape buffalo and kangaroos?

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