RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Excuse me while I jam this ice-pick in my eye! [X(]

Now seriously...I’ve gotta vent here. Excuse me if I sound like ArthurP. ;)

Basically:

I' m sick of carbon arrows...IC carbons...most aren' t very straight....you have cut a little off here, a little off there..and those that are straight don' t stay straight for long....weight tolerances are spotty, inserts are either too loose or too tight... and spine...ughhh...spine..... Yep some are better than others..but they all have some kind of problems that bug the livin beejesus out of me....[:@]

MY NEARLY BRAND NEW dozen of Goldtip XT55/75' s (of which I was able to get 9 really straight shafts), is pretty much KAPUT! Currently 4 of those nine are about as straight as Liberace...2 more are starting to get a little screwy, and 3 are still unshot... I got these about 2 months ago.

Now I may be exaggerating a bit on straightness, but there is no doubt they are not as straight as they were, and now I' ve got 2 or 3 that have a mind of their own...I' ve got one that constantly likes to bear to the right, and another that likes to shake it' s ass around in big circles on the way down to the target no matter what.

The final straw was when I weighed my last 3 bare shafts......12 grain weight variance...

AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH[:' (]:([:@][:o][X(]

Yes I have learned my lesson. I have known all along my efforts to replace them were folly.[:' (]

I rummaged around my arrow box and found 2 brand new A/C/C 3-49 shafts I had fletched, 2 that were unfletched..and after some more digging around found 3 more that I had shot & cut to a different length than I need but were still straight as can be. I heated up the points, took out the inserts, cleaned, cut off as necessary, fletched, re/installed inserts...they were all straight..inserts fit perfectly...

Shot them and they ALL smacked together at 25 yards....hee hee..:)

and 30...Ha ha..:)

and 40... ho ho! :D

No more fooling around for me....they are worth the big bucks!

NO more having to install unibushings :D
NO more having to cut from each end :D
NO more having to rough up the finish to get fletches to stick :D
NO more having to spin, spin, and spin, to get an insert right :D
NO more having to worry about matched weight :D
NO more having to worry about matched spine :D
NO more having to worry about straightness runout :D
NO more having to worry about setting aside 6 " good ones" for hunting only:D


Yeah I know...they will come out with something else next year I feel the need to try.....

The Bemans and Easton carbons I would still shoot if budget dictates otherwise and the CX selects are pretty decent.....

NO!...wait!...it' s happening again....[:@]

Must....not....shoot...anything...besides...A...C. ...C' s.......

I wonder if Easton has a 12 step program??? :D

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

You' ve got a good start with the first 8 steps, I' ll try to add a couple-

9- Can whole heartedly recommend them to people you' ve only met on the internet and know they will be totally thrilled and indebted to you forever...

My ACCs, bought last fall on your recommendation, all hit the same spot out to hunting distances. Each and every one, time after time, assuming I' ve done my part... Life is good :) You' ll never really know how good a shot you are until you try great shafts. I always assumed I just sucked.

10- Sure they cost more, but have you checked the prices of blood pressure meds lately? Not to mention Prozac? Look at all the stress they' ll save you.

11- They allow you to fit in with whatever crowd you happen to be with, either the aluminum or carbon guys. " Yeah, I shoot aluminum... Yeah, I shoot carbon"

12- Once purchased and dialed in, they allow you to totally forget about your arrows and concentrate on other things, like your form, bow tune, etc. They bring supreme confidence to the equation, and allow you to focus elswhere without the nagging " Oh my, look at that world record buck I' ve just drawn on... I hope that last target shot I took with this arrow didn' t mess with the spine any..."

:)

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

I thought the 12 step program was for making payments. I could probably handle 12 easy payments of $10.99. Can I pay for my dozen over the course of a year?

Seriously though, from reading what you both have to say about the ACC' s over the past several months, you' ve convinced me to give them a try. I just haven' t found the extra $$ yet but they' re on the wish list.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeep, I paid $60 for a half dozen. More than enough to shoot and hunt with.

That' s the great thing about them, you don' t have to buy a dozen to cull 4-6 shooters to hunt with, making them cost effective.

With their fantastic spec tolerances, you could probably buy them one at a time over the course of a few months or so and end up with a perfect set. Or simply buy a new one to replace a damaged one.

They' re that good.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Rangeball,

LOL :D Great post. I especially liked #11. I was drinking some water at the time, and it damn near came out my nose. :D

I also liked your comment about “confidence”. That really struck home. And it’s true. I know that once I cut and fletch them, get the inserts in w/ epoxy & spin using field points, my broadheads, mechanical or otherwise are going to be on. EVERY arrow will hit the same spot. No worries.

The only “flaw” w/ A/C/C’s is the fact that they can bend. However IME it takes so much to trash one, that I will go through 2 dozen or more high end all-carbon shafts (and I’d still have to pick and choose among them to get “the good ones”). One of those 3-49’s I fletched has 6 or 7 hard nock-end hits and it’s still very straight and flies perfectly. Again, where I see the most damage is the guys yanking on them like a wet-noodle trying to get them out of a 3D target. I rarely destroy an A/C/C unless it’s a robinhood, or it’s a direct hit on a rock or something that would trash any other shaft.

What has been your experience with durability?

Jeep,

Yup, they are pricey. Some folks can’t bear to spend that money on “just a hunting arrow”. Personally, I’m totally the opposite. As RB mentioned though, you should be able to buy half-dozens. We sell them that way @ the shop (bare shafts or fletched), and Cabelas sells bare-shaft half-dozens with components for about $65 IIRC. And with the “letter codes” you can go to your proshop when the time comes and match the code to get the EXACT same weight arrows w/ the next dozen or half-dozen.

On a related note:

I built a new dozen of the A/C Kintetic II’s for a friend of mine about a week ago. While still quite good, they do have some straightness issues. One was an absolute tomato-stake, and 2 others were iffy; this was @ a cut length of 28”. I should also note though they are labeled A/C they are not the same construction as an A/C/C: they are actually the same as a Beman Matrix w/ just a camo coating. For the astronomical prices for KII’s this is unacceptable IMO. The original Kinetics were actually ACC’s w/ a camo coating and had much better tolerances (but the camo finish was terrible…hence the change).

Ok….I’ll get off the soapbox now: sorry for the interruption. We now return you to your regularly scheduled HBBS program. :D

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RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Navy,

Oh yes..they' ve been refletched...vanes, feathers, helical, offset,new nocks, new bushings, nocks turned for different high spine sides....you name it. I' ve been trying to get them " right" for over a week now.

They are definitely wobbly now. My " exaggeration" comment was directed at the Liberace reference ;) And the one that does cartwheels down the range is certainly no exaggeration. It' s horrible to watch that thing.

My older goldtips have not shot out so quickly, but these have. I should also mention that these are 55/75' s. I have some 75/95' s Matt sent me with quite a few shots on them that are not giving me problems: could be the thick walls are less susceptible to this phenomenon. I do know I went from shooting very good groups(2 to 4" ) @ 40 yards to very poor groups (6 to 8" ) with the same shafts in a weeks time. Then shooting the same bow w/ no modifications, @ the same time, shooting 2" ACC groups with much less frustration (similar spines and arrow weights), that the problem lies somewhere in the arrows.(and the tune was good on the 55/75' s)

I agree, the subconcious can do amazing things, including just what you describe. But these particular Goldtips are definitely " shooting out" at a very fast rate. I' ve experienced this with all the carbon shafts, not just Goldtip, but these are worse than any other dozen of anything I' ve owned. Could be just a bad batch for all I know. I' m not willing to invest in any more to find out though. Too much time and effort involved to get them " right" and possibly not have them last very long.

I know some people love ' em, and have had great luck with the Goldtips (including my friend Ausie) , and I know some don' t like myself .I' d much rather pay $55 a doz than $110 a dozen :D But I' ve blown so much money on Goldtips, CX, Beman and other and I cannot afford to " experiment" anymore. Might as well just stick with what I know works, and comes in at or below tolerance.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeff, I got the half dozen late last season. Only flung one at a doe, angling up a hill, stopped her with a mouth grunt mid step and kind of crouching. Just as I released, she completed her step which resulted in some shaved hair just under her heart area. Arrow nailed an exposed tree root. After extraction, arrow is fine.

I' ve been shooting them into a bag target all year, so wear isn' t an issue for me. All 6 are numbered, and all 6 shoot the same poi based on the shot characteristics.

I agree wholeheartedly. They are a very durable arrow. If a person exercises any degree of common sense, they should serve him/her for a very long time...

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeff.

The only thing that is missing from your posts is the disclaimer;)
You know the one that reads " This is a paid advertisement by Easton Archery blah blah"

Just pullin ya chain man;):D

Now send all them worthless gold tips and cx selects down to me I am sure I can put them to good use oh and ya better send 1/2 dozen of them 3-49' s just so I can do an independant test of them[:o];):D

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

And these are the same Gold Tips you were so enthused about just a short while ago?

I know out of my 9 CX Terminator Selects, I have only 4 that I can rely on with broadheads. Those 4 are spot on. The others are right, low, high left, etc. Thought it was my shooting one day, but when I shot the 4 good ones, the problems just evaporated.

I am probably crazy, but I' ve got a dozen ACCs that are going to sit out the archery season unless trouble happens. My Bowtech is sighted in for the Terminators, and the ACCs shoot well, but quite low in comparison. I did shoot them just to see what they would be like out of that bow. 27 yards, perfect flight, 1 1/2 -2" groups with Muzzys and practice blades, but with my 40 yard pin. Next year they are the arrows of choice for sure.;)

The best part is that I can still get them for $100 per doz. (shafts with inserts) at my local shop. Thought about trying aluminum again, but I' m not real sure what the reason would be.;)

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Hmmmmm! All those problems, all those headaches, all the effort, and never total confidence that something will not drastically change from one moment to the next, at a much higher cost; all for some non-existent and mythical, overwhelming, " Never-happen-Charlie," advantage to shoot just a few times, or maybe not at all, during an entire season at a deer at just over and most often under 20 yards.

If ever there was an ultimate example of practicing the art of wasted effort for naught, the carbon arrow issue wins hands down. For what, one should ask; for a few more fps that does not amount to anything in the big picture? The gain vs. loss is like adding 2+4 or 4+2. In the end, it all adds up to the same number.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Doesn' t this same logic apply to the advantage of aluminum or A/C/C over carbon. At just over and most often under 20 yards, does it really make a difference? It hasn' t for me. I' ve shot lots of animals with carbons, without a problem. With the distance we typically shoot at, and the accuracy required for a kill at these distances, it just doesn' t matter. If I was shooting at 40 or 50 yards, I' d probably have a different opinion, but all my shots are under 25 yards.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Without going into a huge thesis and debate (for me at least :D) I like carbon for several reasons

1) Increased durability
2) Increased penetration (some will disagree, but IME that is the case)
3) Better shaft recovery/stiffness for easier tuning from set-up to set-up
4) Flatter trajectory

As I’ve found over the past years #1 is not always a given with most IC carbons, since they wear out at a quicker rate.

Where I currently hunt a 30 to 35 yard shot is not out of the question in some cases. In my home state a 40 yard shot is quite common hunting crop field edges. It took one season of misjudging my yardage by 5 yards or so and barely shooting over the same very nice buck’s back both times with heavy, slower arrows (aluminum). First time I judged him for a tad over 30 and he was at about 25 yards, the second time I judged him for 40 to 41 and he was around 36. Both were good shots and I would have center punched his lungs had I got the yardage correct, instead I grazed his back (I’ll also not that both times he didn’t even jump the string. He was completely relaxed and due to the situation quite likely barely heard the bow).

With my current set-ups and the speed they produce the difference 5 yards makes is negligible, and I would have drilled that buck the first time.

Sure I can work on my range estimation, and have done so (at the time I was shooting 3D competitively), but in the heat of the moment hunting, I suck at judging yardage, plain and simple. I suck @ 3D too, but that' s another story for another time :D

I have nothing against aluminum, it precise, easy to work with and consistent, but until I can get a bow shooting it @ the same speeds I shoot carbon at now w/ the same draw length and poundage, and it becomes more durable, I’ll stick w/ A/C/Cs. They offer all the advantages of both shaft types with little if any disadvantage from either.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeff:

While I agree with just about everything you posted, and I' ll emphasize several comments that you made, there is one comment you made where I' ll respectfully disagree/clarify.

Quote:

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I have nothing against aluminum, it precise, easy to work with and consistent,...

---

The " easy to work with" is where I slightly disagree with you. The fact that they cover much less a poundage spectrum and that they don' t recover as quickly off the string is a detrimental factor - when compared to carbon or carbon wrapped arrows. As you stated so eloquently, there are definite advantages and disadvantages of both; and, the ACCs incorporate the best of both. I mention this because " easy to work with" is relative.;)

I also found the Kinetics to be ' less than desirable' . I recently had a good customer headed for an elk hunt and had come to me at the Hoyt Rep' s recommendation with all new product already ' in hand' . The first thing was that he had the wrong bow, and the second thing was that he had Kinetics. He was amazed that I recommended he only use 1/2 the arrows he had been given. I showed him how I tested the arrows and he couldn' t refute my findings.

I noticed in the beginning you stated:

Quote:

---

I' m sick of carbon arrows...IC carbons

---

You know where I' m coming from with this statement.:D

Shoot straight and enjoy your ACCs. :)

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Funny, out of a dozen Easton Carbon Evolution 400' s, 11 will shoot tacks with broadheads. Maybe I got lucky.

I thought about trying the ACCs but never did after 2 guys I know who shoot them have bent some!!! Remember, its still aluminum inside that wrapped carbon.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeff, I may have to retract my retraction. Those Terminator Selects you sent were great when I first got them, but one is already showing some wobble at the insert. The other 3 still spin true.

Still think I should b!tchslap you for sending me that ACC though! I knew I didn' t want to know how good those things are. ;)

You know one thing you can do to help yourself out with that yardage estimation stuff? Take the flippin' sights off the bow and shoot instinctive. I' ve hunted with sights less than 5 times in my entire life because I learned early on that sights suck on a hunting bow!

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RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Gosh I missed some comments from last night

Rangeball,

Your experiences mirror mine over the years. You don’t have to baby A/C/C’s by any means, but you can’t treat them like they are a telephone pole either.

Ausie,

Boy do I WISH I was on the Easton staff or something. Then I wouldn’t have to pay so much for them. Even w/ the discount I get at the shop they still are expensive.

Jeff,

Aye, they be the very same ones.

That is a great price on the A/C/Cs: about what I get them for w/ my discount at the shop w/ components. Consider yourself lucky, and take advantage of the situation :D. And unfortunately I’m not surprised about your experience w/ the T-selects. How long have you had them? And for God’s Sakes man, fletch up what you have and sight those bad boys in! ;)

Len,

I should have elaborated on that point: I meant easy to work with from a construction standpoint: Easy to fletch, get inserts in, etc. I made mention of the wider spine tolerances for carbons (point # 3 I believe :D), but although the range is much narrower, at least you know what you are getting beforehand w/ XX: no surprises! :D

I too was surprised and upset about the KIIs. While most were very good, those 3 were just unacceptable at cut length. BTW, Easton/Beman rates the KII/Matrix at a different straightness tolerance (as per a Easton rep) . .003 over 28”. These particular shafts were cut to nearly exactly that. 9 would likely make the tolerance but 3 were way off. 2 were likely in the .008 range, the other was noticeably worse than those. :(

Perhaps I’ll grab some Beman pultrudeds again next year. They are not too expensive for experimenting, and are much higher quality shaft. I believe that is what you use, no?

ArthurP,

I’m sorry to hear about that T-Select. I would not expect them to start to crap out so soon. How many times have you shot them appx?

:D I told you about those A/C/C’s my friend, now you will have to join me among the ranks of the hybrid arrow shaft shooters..C’mon..you know you want some..ALL the cool kids are doing it! ;):D

And were it not for my bum back, I’d likely still be shooting instinctively w/ a longbow. However I am cross-dominant. I would have to switch to LH shooting, and my back rebels every time I try, compound or stickbow. I’ve even have a RH Saxon longbow sitting around I tried instinctive and for gap shooting w/ my left eye closed, but I just never felt comfy with that. Believe you me, if my back could take it, I’d be walking the woods with a custom Morrison or Elburg, or some other longbow along with some tapered Norway Pine or Cedar with 5 inch banana-cuts and tipped with 125 grain grizzlys..I do miss it.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

I' ve shot each of those arrows about a hundred shots apiece now on Morrell outdoor range bags and McKenzie' s. About another 40 shots each into the sand pile with broadheads. Compound, recurve and longbow. They shoot well out of all and I like having one size arrow that shoots good on all my bows. That saves me a LOT of money!

Right now it' s 2216' s for my sticks and 2315' s for the compound.

That blasted ACC shoots good off all my bows too. I really didn' t want to admit it, but now there is no denying the fact.... I' m screwed.:) It' s still wood for the selfbows though! There is no way I will commit the heresy of shooting carbon off a selfbow!! LOL:D

About the Selects though, I really didn' t expect to see any changes so soon either. The trials continue.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Jeff:

I figured as much about your comment. :D

Right-on about what I still shoot. They do, however, have to be checked periodically after shooting into something hard. The fun part is that the point adapters can be readjusted to the centerline of the shaft it is what takes most of the brunt of the impact.

Arthur:

I' ve had ' die-hard' trad shooters fall in love with ACCs. They ' recover' off the string/shelf so much faster than the straight aluminums.;)

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

JeffB,

I feel your frustration.....I' ve recently experienced them myself. I finally broke down and bought a 1/2 dozen 3D Pro Gold Tips from my local archery shop and I' ve got to say that they are ten times straighter then any other carbon shaft I' ve bought, bu their pricey! I did find a heck of a deal at Mt.Archery (thanks to some guys on bowhunting.com) and got a dozen 3-D pros for $69.00.
I also wrote a pretty nasty email to Gold Tip explaning my concerns and I got a response almost immediately! I actually ended up talking to one of their regional reps and he was a great guy. He had me pack up and ship him any arrows that I thought would not meet my requirements and he would personally replace the arrows with straight shafts that he HAND picked. I should be getting them back any day now and post the results.
I had to spend a little money......but now I have 12 out of 12 arrows that are perfectly straight and flying like darts, right with my field points!!!!

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Art:

In accordance with your locked and loaded draw-weight of that " stick," what poundage is launching those 2216' s. I know this is not theTrad forum, but I caught your message and it made me reflect back to this weekend.

Buddy is having left flight (good groups) with a 31" 2413 shaft mount with a 140-grn bh being launched by approx 51 to 53-lb. I am suspecting he is underspined, maybe greatly. I had him shoot some of my fabulous and reliable 30.75" 2315 alum' s with 125 grn heads and his group moved to right, but still not on POA.

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

C - I' m shooting around 55 pounds with a 32 1/2" 2216, using 125 gn tips. I don' t know what idiot was in charge of setting the recurve spines on their chart [:' (], but following the standard Easton chart will set you up with an arrow that' s w-a-y overspine. Hit the Legacy chart on Easton' s website. That chart is MUCH closer to real life.

Your friend should be shooting something like a 2117 or 2215. 2413 is just too stiff. 2315 is even worse.

Jeff, sometimes my bum back won' t let me shoot my sticks. That' s when I pull out the ' orthopedic recurve,' aka the ProTec. Just ' cuz it' s got pulleys and cables don' t mean it' s got to be shot with sights. ;) You do know, don' t you, that Fred Bear was crossdominant and he was a pretty fair instinctive shot. Just a thought. [8D]

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

Not that there' s anything wrong with that...

:D

RE: RANT: Sometime' s Ya Just Gotta Vent
 

" Cross dominant." Is that like being AC/DC and bossy? ;)