RE: Speed, or Weight
 

If light & fast is the way to go, I wonder why experienced dangerous game hunters use slow and heavy arrows? Let' s face it, a whitetail deer doesn' t pose much resistance to penetration under proper shot selection scenarios. And compared to large African game, and elk doesn' t either.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Its funny to me how in the early-mid 90s it was all about fps, now for the last 5 years or so its Kinetic energy. I dont bother with it (all this math is hurtin muh haid).

Growing up in my brothers archery shop in the mid-late 80s, my standard reply to folks asking " speed vs weight" I would tell them... Whats easier to stop, a sports car doin 200mph or a freight train doin 100? That is as basic and easy to put as I can come up with. The easiest passthrus I have ever gotten were from my Martin takedown (recurve) shootin 2219s with RAZOR sharp Zwickey broadheads. I dont mean the arrow stuck thru the otherside or was layin on the ground behind the deer. I mean BURIED in the ground as in went thru the deer like hot butter and still had enough velocity to stick into the ground as much as 8" -10" . If I remember right my old Martin was once chronied at appx 190fps so obviously it wasnt speed. The downside was that the trajectory was about as bowed as the limbs on that Martin. 20 yds was a long shot from that bow. But BIG bonus to a gaping holed passthru was the bloodtrail that Ray Charles could follow.

In 97 after 4-5 other compounds since the 80s, I bought what was a " fast bow" for then (Hoyt Deviator Carbonite) and with superlight arrows (want to say they were 2312s but that maybe wrong) and 85 grain Thunderheads. The combo chronied 272 fps. I was good with one pin to 30 yds and could hit like lightning to 40 easy. Imagine my frustration (and outright furiosity) when later that season while on a hunt in MO I hit a 140class 9 pointer DEAD in the shoulder blade at under 10 yds. The arrow didnt go in enough to even bury the broadhead. Basically a fleshwound and I watched the arrow popout (unharmed) 20yds away as he ran by a tree that knocked the arrow out. No doubt in my mind that had I had either my old Martin or a heavy arrow/head setup in the Hoyt that despite the bad shot placement it would' ve at least broke the shoulder and reached at one lung. I was thru with " speed" until this season.

This year I need 40-45yd ability (will be filming from a Double Bull around foodplots) so I switched the Hoyt to 55/75 Gold Tips with 100gn Rocket Aeros (Bacon Cutters) and it chronied 282 fps and should hit 1 pin to at least 30yds. Despite the " KE" and anyother paper forumulas or sliderule mathematics, I know that I will have to pick my shots and dont really expect full passthrus outside of 20yds.

I just cant wait until the day that I can fire 600+grainers at 400fps lol!!!
RA

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Just remember the guys against heavy arrows just can`t judge yardage:). I love my 2219s :D.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Isn' t it great:) physics is in everything. Math too!!:D Mayber after a few more years and I become a full blown engineer i can figure out a less complicated way to kill a deer. one that we won' t have to argue over which way is better. oh yeah there is one. a GUN. But, thats why I love bowhunting, the challenge and preperation that go into it. I cant just go blast away at the deer and kill it.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

well speed or weight: they both have there advantages. if your out hunting where you need to make a long shot like hunting antalope you would like a faster arrow. but if your just hunting something close or out to 30-40yrds weight is good too. eather way is good. its a personal preference on witch on a person chooses

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Art, you Do realize that in your water test your gonna need a VERY long tank. Arrows being very aerodynamic (And hydrodynamic) will go though water much better than a bullet that turns into a mushroom in impact.

Get that sports car up to the same KE as the freight train....and you ain' t gonna stop either on of them!!!

experianced dangerous game hunters don' t go for slow and heavy...they go for heavy and whatever speed you can put behind them..and hit accurately.
Can someone tell me how fast is TOO fast to kill game?

Once we get to that nice 600gn arrow at 400 fps...much of this won' t matter....if it does at all even today!

A SHARP head put in the right area can/WILL kill deer dead...very cleanly. Within reason, it doesn' t really matter how heavy or fast it' s going. Arrow bounces off of a shoulder blade? don' t hit the shoulder blade!!! That' s a tough challenge for ANY set up...no matter how fast or slow! A buddy of mine who ALWAYS shot heavy/slow (recurve with Zwickey heads) told me the SAME story about HIS arrow bouncing off....and how he WISHED he had his Mathews THAT day!!! (He just won it...doesn' t shoot the recurve much any more....personal choice)

Shoot what you will...if it works for you...GREAT!!! I' m just saying that there is MORE to penetration than momentum.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Mahly, I' ve often thought about using the deep end of my pool, but am not convinced 8' is enough water :)

Art, assuming as Mahly said the arrows tested were of the same diameter, one light and one heavy, producing the same ke figures, even if the target material was designed (somewhat) to stop arrows, wouldn' t you expect the test to have some merit? I' ve been thinking about it, and can' t come up with a good reason why it wouldn' t...

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Rangeball, IF the arrows were of the same diameter, IF they were the same materials, IF the spine was identical, IF they were shot from the same bow, IF that bow was mounted in a Hooter Shooter then shot into a block of foam and IF you shot each arrow at least a thousand times to create a data base for all out statistical analysis, you' d certainly be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt whether light and fast vs slow and heavy penetrates best in that block of foam.

But deer still ain' t made of foam except the ones on the 3D range. That' s where fps that RedAllison spoke of got started, guys who hunted rubber deer. Now they think they' re rubber deer rigs work just as well on real deer. It all started out as simply a GAME for people to shoot with their HUNTING rigs. Then it turned into an all out arms race for speed (because the guys that aren' t worth a S#!+ at judging yardage found out they could score better with a flat shooting setup.

Now 3D is backfilling, like a sewer backwash, into the woods and HUNTING is something people want to do with their TARGET rigs. And so, they' re throwing all these ' tests' and mathematical formulae around trying to prove they' re not totally unethical.

Try enough Mahly. On the other hand, get the sports car going fast enough to equal the train' s MOMENTUM and see what you get. Of course, you might run into Einstein' s Theory of Relativity before you can get the car going that fast.:D

You' re very correct about the 600 gn arrow at 400 fps. But there' s going those that are a step beyond the edge of lunacy that' s going to be using those bows to shoot 350 gn arrows at 525 fps. Frankly, it' s going to be the end of bowhunting when we get to that point.

I know how much most of you guys absolutely HATE introducing any form of philosophy into a discussion, but I think some words are appropriate:

" Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do. Gadgets fill the pockets. They dangle from the neck and belt. The overflow fills the auto-trunk and also the trailer."

" Sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation on the use of these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things."

" Voluntary adherence to an ethical code elevates the self respect of the sportsman. The voluntary disregard of the code degenerates and depraves him."

" It has not dawned on him that outdoor recreations are essentially primitive, atavistic; but their value is contrast value; that excessive mechanization destroys contrast by moving the factory into the woods or the marsh."

Excerpted quotes by Aldo Leopold, " Sand County Almanac"

I' ll let you draw your own conclusions about all that, but I think you all know how I feel about it.:)

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

I have tried one of the lighter carbon arrows (CX 200@7g/" ) total weight with 100g field tip @ 351g, I' ve also tried one of the heavier carbon arrows (Terminator Hunter@11g/" ) total weight with 100g field tip @ 453g. in my new Bow. The KE difference is less then 1# (62-63# range) and momentum is within 1/100' s however the heavier arrow is 33fps slower (249fps vs 282fps) and also the heavier arrow has alot more drop, that all being said I like the lighter arrow as I' m not gaining any KE or Momentum with the heavier arrow and with the lighter I gain 33fps and alot less drop...........The lighter arrow makes alittle more noise through quieter with leaches added. I have a new VFT 60#/28"
Anyone have any addition input on arrow selection/weight or any other considerations? etc.? Any advantages to heavier arrow? As stated above KE and Momentum are real close, heavier arrow is 33fps slower and drops more?????

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Frankly, you' re undervaluing the momentum you get with the heavier arrow. There is a sizeable difference. Going by the strict forumula and fiddling around with all those decimal points is confusing. You can take arrow weight multiply it by speed and then divide by 1000 to get a pretty basic index number that probably illustrates it better.

Take your 351 gn arrow at 282 fps. It gives you 98.98. Your 453 gn arrow at 249 gives you 112.797. So, round it off to keep things simple, you' ve got 113 vs 99. That' s a tad over 12% more momentum you' re giving up for a 13% increase in arrow speed. I don' t know how far you intend to take a hunting shot, but the difference in trajectory within 30 yards is practically negligible. But, you' re playing on your nickle so make yourself happy.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Art, I guess where I' m getting confused is if both arrows illustrated above are of the same spec with the only variable being weight, and the lighter arrow penetrates slightly more than the heavy in a dense material, why would is suddenly not be able to penetrate as well in an animal " not designed to stop an arrow" that is " 70% water" ?

As for the quotes, if an amount of gadgetry will allow me to become proficient in placing my shots at live animals where they are intended at the ranges I am comfortable taking them, I' m fine with that. If some think that makes me immorale or unethical, that' s their problem. The demands of todays world simply don' t allow the luxury of quantity practice time. Believe me I wish they did, but they don' t, so instead of avoiding the pastime I love second to very few things because I can' t follow someone elses view of the game, I hunt with what allows me to get the job done efficiently.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Rangeball, I' m not saying the lighter arrow wouldn' t penetrate as well. I' m saying I don' t believe they would and that shooting into foam does NOT prove a thing, other than how the two would penetrate into a foam block.

An animal is not a homogenous blob of material. It' s hair, hide, flesh, fat, bone, blood.... Those tissues react to a cut totally differently than foam does and the fat, blood and other body fluids lubricate the shaft where a foam block does not.

A very, very common complaint. Also the basest of all cop-outs. The cruel world doesn' t ALLOW time for anything. It never has. One must MAKE the time to do the things one really wants to do. If you don' t want to make practice time available for yourself with the gear you' ve selected for hunting, what does that tell you about the stuff you use? It' s like I said on another thread. This newfangled equipment simply is not fun to use and most people avoid shooting it until they absolutely have to.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

I don' t know Art, I' m having a blast and I still put in a full week or work, chase two kids around to every thing they are involved it, get most of the chores done and the wife' s level of bitchin' is down to a dull roar, at times... :)

And I can get in adequate practice time with the equipment I choose to use and have no doubt I am proficient in it' s use. Some may think it' s a cop out, I prefer to see it as a compromise that keeps me in a tree...

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Yeah, well there' s where I have an advantage. I' ve only got one kid, and I' m half deaf so the wife is always at a dull roar. ;)

But even when I worked 55-70 hours a week, I still had time to flip on the light in the back yard, get out and shoot a few arrows out of my sticks every night. Beat the dickens out of flopping down in front of the tube and I wasn' t terrified of killing someone a block away because a release had pre-fired.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Come on Art - not fun for you - because you are so resistant to change:D

I love the new stuff - This stuff you despise - is one of the big draws for me and keeps me very interested in the sport and in shooting.

Why you always dissing us techno guys???

Do we scare you:D

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Because you deserve it.

In one way, yes. I think you' re killing off the sport, whether destroying bowhunting by driving up hunter success ratios or by intimidating newbies to the point they don' t take up archery as a family pastime.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Tangent

Wow Arthur. I' m surprised to see your response to Racks first question. I don' t see any smilies, so I can only assume that was meant in a snarkey manner.


As for your second answer. In the vast majority of states, higher success ratios are a good thing with the huge upswing in game populations in most areas of the country. In my area, guys can' t kill enough deer, and same w/ my home state of VA.I could see where this might have some (very little IMO) effect on some western game species, but with all due respect Arthur, this is the " sour grapes" kind of response I used to have to drudge through in every other sentence in Traditional Bowhunter magazine: a publication I stopped reading because it was filled with so much " I' m anti- anything I don' t shoot myself" propaganda written by great hunters who also happen to be pompous asses (at least on paper). Too bad becuase otherwise it' s a fantastic hunting resource...

In addition as someone who has worked in the industry (and still does to a certain extent), I don' t see compounds discouraging newbies at all. In fact it' s just the opposite. Just as in-line muzzleloaders have brought more cross-over gun hunters. We sell hundreds (yep..hundreds) of low-end beginner bows each year. Compared to maybe 20 or 30 trad bows. Honestly, I see more people turned off when we show them trad equipment. Sad thing really, but fact is most people don' t have the time nor can they make said time w/ the rat race of today. Things are different these days(for better or for worse), and different standards must be applied.

I' d rather hunt w/ trad equipment but Family issues, health issues, and time constraints from work prohibit me from doing so. So I hunt w/ modern bowhunting equipment. I' ll have you know though, that I practice several times a week, year round. With traditional equipment, to maintain a level of proficency that I' d feel comfy hunting with, I' d have to nearly double the amount of time spent practicing. No thanx. for me that would be a chore, and unfeasible unless I could magically whisk all my other responsibilities away. (boy , I wish! :D ).

I don' t seem to be killing any more deer these days with higher tech equipment than I did 12 or 15 years ago, either. I don' t buy into that argument. I' ll have you know that the two guys who ran the local trad archery shop kill 7 to 8 deer per year apiece with their equipment. I take one if the opportunity presents itself. I don' t think the increased success ratios have mattered for the reasons I' ve stated above. I think the real problem is too many hunters and not enugh land to accomodate them. Urban sprawl & the destruction of the farming lifestyle is a far greater enemy to hunting than a fiber-optic pin or a carbon arrow.

I will agree that for many hunters, how you take that animal is more important than actually taking that animal but that' s a standard applicable only to oneself, you cannot hold that as a general blanket standard to all (I' ll never gun hunt again for example, but I certainly do not begrudge gun-hunters or complain about them).

If it' s legal, you are having fun, and being respectful to the land and the game, I could care less if you' ve got a 25-06, a smokepole, a Hi-tech compound, or beautiful red elm and cocobolo longbow in your hands, you are welcome @ my campfire.:D

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Come on Arthur - What do I deserve?:(

What did I or guys like me do to the sport?

I think about bow hunting 24-7-365, just like you:)

I practice my but off all year - just like you.

I have never put my fancy smancy equipment over my countless hours spent in the woods and my knowledge and skill as a bow hunter. My new fangled solo cam, drop away, carbon arrowed mechanical spitting bow never put me over good deer. I get my deer just like you - hard work, dedication and an absolute love for this sport.

I shoot the equipment I do because I can - and I love to tinker with it and aggravate myself to all heck:) You know this new techno stuff isn’t all its cracked up to be;). You say hunters don' t have the patience or work ethic to shoot the trad equip you do - Well maybe.......You trad guys don' t have the patients or work ethic to get this modern crap to work right:D;)

I have all the respect in the world for trad guys - more power to them - it isn' t easy, I know it.

And I agree with Jeff 100% - last thing we as bow hunters need is 2% success ratios - We will be kicked out of the picture before you can say 300 fps;). Maybe other areas are different - but around here, the DEC, the car drivers, the farmers and the landscape owners would love to see a much higher success ratio than we have today - Just to many deer running around Suburbia U.S. today.

And new archers love the compound - talk about intimidating - hand a new be a recurve and let em shoot...LOL....DUCK!![:o]

Arthur I would hate to think I am the bad guy - damn - there is lots of me out there:)

If so we are doomed

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

R-a, we are doomed.

Nothing personal aimed at you in the above post. I wasn' t being snarkey with you, as Jeff put it, but with techies in general. Sorry if it came across that way. I' ve been told once too often in the past couple of weeks that I' m afraid of change, and been called a few things that were less than flattering by the techies that go out of their way to dis anyone that doesn' t agree with them. Sometimes steam comes shooting out my ears, if ya know what I mean.

Jeff, inline muzzleloaders are on my s#!+ list too. Same reasons! Let' s take a ' primitive' season then develop and use hotshot weapons the season was never intended for. Make it just as easy as shooting a 30-30, then claim it' s no different from an old sidelock musket and bash the NMLRA if they say anything about it.

The parallels between muzzleloading and archery seasons are remarkably similar.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Arthur,

I don' t want to sidetrack the thread any further, so I' ll make this brief (well as brief as a verbose SOB such as myself can be ;) )

1) I certainly hope I have not offended you in anyway as you mentioned in the past few weeks. While you and I don' t always see eye to eye, I have a great deal of respect for you as a member of this community. I don' t recall anything, but If I have said something that made you feel " ragged on" , I apologize.

2) Not a fan of in-lines either, personally. Suffice to say, we shall just have to agree to disagree on these matters as our viewpoints are different on " primitive weapon" seasons. Please know however, I understand your points and respect them. At one time, I harbored many of the same convictions as you!


:)

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

Understood, Jeff. And no offense taken from any of your posts. I enjoy discussing such issues with people that have actual reasoning behind the points of view they hold.

But you' re right about taking the thread way off base. My apologies, Dan!

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

No offense taken Arthur. I find your debate quite interesting. While I do agree that the advancements in bow design have changed the sport, I don' t think it has ruined it.

Like you and many others here, I shoot year round. I can' t help but think that all the time I have spent helping teach adults new to archery and the children I have taught archery to in Hunters Education hasn' t helped further the sport in some way.

Archery is archery, you and I just enjoy it with different tools. I equally respect the traditional archer that can put a homemade arrow on meat as I do the target archer that can hit an X ring at 90 meters.

Regardless, Im going after elk in another week and a half with heavy instead of light. I have been glassing up some trophy bulls lately. I hope to have a good story to share when I get back.

Thanks to all that have posted to this thread.

Dan

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

I am still trying to figure out how

" using those bows to shoot 350 gn arrows at 525 fps. Frankly, it' s going to be the end of bowhunting when we get to that point."

I' ll bet that was said when the first compound was invented!

How does BETTER equipment " KILL BOWHUNTING" ???

We have NO lack of deer!!! and our success ratios are starting to ligitimate bowhunting as a method of population control.

Don' t like all this " excessive mechanization" ??? Get rid of that hoity toity bow and grab a pointed stick to kill your bison!!!

PERSONALLY, I LOVE shooting my bow for both hunting AND target shooting...the target guys think I' m shooting spots with my hunting bow...and others think I' m hunting with my target bow...FINE WITH ME!!! I LIKE being able to put an arrow exactly where I want (yeah...the deer might move...but I can still pick my spot to within an inch or two and KNOW the arrow with be there...I can' t do that with trad stuff)

back to the beginning...as far as the tests go. they are there to tell only one story. What happens to penetration when you compare something light and fast to something heavy and slow that have the same KE. Hell, it doesn' t even have to be arrows! The FACT remains, that a fast light arrow with the same KE as a slow heavy arrow can/will penetrate just as well or better. No matter the media (foam, water, or deer) KE is simply the best gauge for judging penetration. One can bury one' s head in the sand all he/she wants, that doesn' t change it. calling it names won' t change it, saying it will kill bowhunting won' t change it.

As for philosophy (which I rather do enjoy...though this was a scientific discussion) I' ll leave you with these.

" a hit with a pellet gun is infinatly more effective than a miss from a canon"

" perception trumps reality...but doesn' t change it"

" the future of bowhunting is not it' s past...but it' s future"

" sticks and stones may break my bones...but only if you hit me"

" don' t fear the future...or in the future you' ll be feared"

" it' s hard to see where you going when your always looking back"

Excerpted quotes by me " Speed or Weight"
:D:D[8D][8D];)

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

THAT' S THE ONE!!!

A Cape Buff would show you the difference between perception and reality. Take your puny 350 gn arrows and go chase one of those buggers.:)

Oh, wait. They' re not legal for hunting heavy, dangerous game over yonder, are they. They mandate minimum arrow weights for the big boys. Wonder why that is?

As far as not being able to see where I' m going, my boy, I' ve headed up that path, taken a look up up ahead and saw where it was leading, then turned around and went the other way. Fortunately, I was born without the lemming gene and do not feel compelled to follow the herd off the cliff.

Archery may be evolving. They say that dinosaurs evolved into birds. If so, at some point they quit being dinosaurs, didn' t they. At what point in archery' s evolution will it quit being archery? Bowtech says they' re taking the arch out of archery, right there in their advertising. Maybe we need to start calling your form of shooting ' flattery' . You do realize there ain' t no such thing as flattery season. :D

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

But flattery will get you somewhere, won' t it? :)

Arthur, I guess when it boils down to it, I see a deer as being infinatley more penetratable than a block of foam, so it only makes sense to me that if the light fast arrow penetrates slightly farther than the slow heavy, it will in deer as well, especially when lubed by fluids.

As for light fast not being legal " over there" , has anyone actually tested light fast and found them to be inferior, or are they simply repeated old aged dogma? Perhaps the guy in charge are all traditionalists... :)

Take the FDA food pyramid for instance. It' s widely promoted as THE way to eat, but is blowing our population up faster than you can say twinkie. Just because it is accepted practice, doesn' t make it so. Same goes for a lot of things governments force on us poor stupid folk who don' t know better.

If Africans have done extensive research and testing as a basis to form their light fast no no law on, I' d sure love to read it.

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

to each his own!that is what makes the world tick.the so called purist and traditionals don' t have enough followers to control the animal population by themselves.these kind of posts are what drives me away from a website for several days at a time.what drivel![&o]

RE: Speed, or Weight
 

I feel like I' m the only Republican at a Hillary rally! :D

Rangeball, I' ve done a search and can' t find any studies. May be that they base their requirments on what the PH' s say. They don' t like their hunters getting stomped to death before they tip the hired hands, ya know.