Nomercy448

A buddy of mine picked up a new Diamond Outlaw a few months ago. They double checked the centershot with the laser and installed his sight and peep at the shop and it was shooting well at 10yrds with shop arrows. He bought some new arrows, and went on his way.

He brought it over last weekend and we paper tuned it. It was tearing high right, so I dropped his rest and moved it out 1/8", and it made perfect tears. When we got it outside, he was hitting about 6" left of target at 20yrds, so we moved the sight out... But by the time we got to the end of the sight windage bar (has a little lip to stop it from sliding out of the mount clamp), it was still about 2" left at 20yrds.

The only options I saw for him was to get a sight with a longer bar, or grind the stop lip off of the bar, which would give him an extra 3/16-1/4" or so of windage adjustment. (It's a 28" draw, so I figure peep to front sight is about 30", so 1/8" movement at the front sight would be about 3" correction at 20yrds).

But he is worried that there's something wrong with the cams, which is why we had to move off centershot to paper tune. I figured being within 1/8" of centershot isn't very far off, but he's worried that the sight not adjusting far enough is indicative of a bigger problem.

So should we suspect something else wrong, or just alter the sight bar?

bronko22000

OK let's try something. If he is shooting a release, nock an arrow and eyeball the string to the center of the limbs while looking down the arrow. Arrow tip and sight pins should be very close to being aligned. Now, If everything was laser checked at the shop and it was shooting well with shop arrows at 10 yds, unless HIS arrow are improperly spined it should be shooting fairly well at 20 yds.
Let me suggest that you move the rest back to about where it was when it came from the shop. Forget paper tuning. Resight at 10 yds. NOW, shoot an arrow at 10, 15, 20, 25 using the same pin. These arrows should fall in a vertical line. (Make sure they are all good shots.) If not, move the rest left or right in small increments (1/16" or less). Once this is complete move on to broadheads. Shoot a field tip then a broadhead. They should both hit same POI. If your BH hits left of the FT, move the rest to the right a little. (1/32" at a time). When you start getting close it may be a good idea to shoot the BH first and then the FT. (easier on the fletching).
Using the above method, I can usually get a bow shooting perfectly in less than an hour.
If you can't get the BHs and FTs to hit the same point of impact then you have imporperly spined arrows.
Another good post is "Don't stop at walkback" in the beginning of this forum.

Nomercy448

So the big question I have is "how good is good"? He's not a precision shooter, palm sized groups at 20yrds is "good" for him. He says it was "dead on" at the shop (I was not there) at 10yrds with HIS arrows, but then again, when I was hitting 8" groups shooting left handed at 40yrds (I'm a righty, just shooting lefty for fun), he also called that "dead on", while I was about to puke for shooting so poorly.

We decided to paper tune his bow because he was getting shafts pointing in all different directions in the target (I mean 45degree variance!). We powder tested to make sure he wasn't making contact, then paper tested, and he was kicking high right, big time, so we moved the rest until we got bullet holes. His groups at 10yrds were palms to half dollars at best, but his 20yrd groups were really opening up, really randomly scattered left to right. This is not his first bow, and I have seen him shoot much better, and he shot MY bow that day much better.

His groups DID improve when we paper tuned (to the point all of his cock vanes are clocked the same in the target even, and all of the shafts are parallel), they just moved 4" off target, and we can only bring them about half way back ON target. We walked them back, and the arrows are stringing farther and farther out proportionately (2" at 20yrds, 3" at 30yrds, 4" at 40yrds), and his Rage practice points are flying exactly the same as his field points.

Like I said, to me, it's a simple solution. The bow is shooting GREAT, it just needs more windage adjustment to get POA to meet POI, so it's a simple sight swap. He's worried that he has a cam issue, and wonders if he shouldn't do something different to make the bow shoot better with the rest at the lasered centershot position.

Personally, adjusting cams is hard, moving rests is easy. I feel like someone designed them that way for a reason, so I tend to adjust the rest to where the cams/limbs/bow want to shoot, rather than worrying about adjusting the cams to shoot 1/8" closer to an arbitrary laser line?

bronko22000

This may sound crazy but how far (deep) is the center shot on the riser. Would it be possible to mount the sight on the inside of the riser? Just thinking out loud here.

Average Joe

Don't know all the variables, but a Diamond Outlaw is a single cam with a split yoke on the idler or top limb. Sounds like you have idler lean which will throw off center shot. Also you said when you paper tested he shot high? I'm assuming you mean nock high? If so you wouldn't move the rest down, but you would raise the rest to fix.

bronko22000

Joe is right, you moved the rest down and out instead of up and out.

Nomercy448

I would have thought so too, but as I mentioned when we moved the rest down, it made the nock high tears worse.

So I stood beside him while he shot a few times, and while he let the bow down slowly a few times, and realized what was happening, and why it was acting backwards of normal "tear pattern charts".

NORMALLY, yes, nock high tears would mean the rest is too low. However, that's based on fall-away and drop-away rests. For these type of rests, the rest determines where the tip goes, and the string determines where the tail/nock ends up.

But the problem is that he is using a capture rest (which is why I don't ever use capture rests). The rest ultimately determines where the entire shaft goes, tip and tail. So his tail was actually ramping up off of the rest.

We dropped the rest until the tail travel at the end of the stroke looked about level, and shot through paper again (about 1/8" lower than the initial "level" position). Perfect bullet holes.

His arrows went from visibly fishtailing in flight and sticking out in all directions and nock high tears, to perfect bullet holes with all of the arrows parallel in the target. He also gained about 5fps.

And ultimately, none of the up and down would have anything to do with the L to R, which is where we're having problems with the sight. Since this is a new bow, I'd be surprised if we were getting excessive idler lean, but it DOES happen (improperly set up at factory).

The bar on his sight is short. Shorter than the bars on any of my other 3 bow sights. I just can't imagine it HAS to be that complicated? Frankly, I'm not certain that the laser is THAT accurate for centershot, and lasering the centershot with the bow at rest isn't necessarily accurate for centershot when the bow would be drawn so I'm not really one to depend on the LASER over where a bow "wants to shoot". If it were an old bow, that suddenly started whipping, I might think the idler bearing was wearing and starting to lean, but for a new bow?

No, unfortunately, there's not enough clearance to bring the sight mount inside the riser. I thought of that, haha, no such luck.

bronko22000

I had a NAP Quik tune 360 rest that I just could not tune. I called NAP and they told me I could send it to them for a rest of my choice. I requested an Apache drop away and they made the swap. They even sent me a pack of Bloodrunner broadheads along with it. Can't beat that for customer service.

OfcHiggy

Just a quick,and maybe easy fix. I had a issue similar to this with new arrows. What I would later find out was happening, after maye hours of wanting to throw my bow, was that the fletching on my new arrows was taller than my old arrows. The fletchings would hit my cables as they left the bow and cause my arrows to be off. Just simply adjusted my cable guide, or you could rotate your arrows where the fletching will pass the cable w/o hitting it.
This could be the issue, but like I said a very SIMPLE suggestion. Good luck.

halfbakedi420

i havnt had such luck. i shoot magnus snuffers, they are fixed blade. i cant understand how a field tip would fly the same as a snuffer? because of the aerodynamics and weight change. please explain.