For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

With all thing being equal would a bow with a brace heigth of 6" and A-T-A length of 36" be as accurate as a bow with a brace heigth of 7" and A-T-A of 31.5". I would think it would average out to about the same. Which has more of a bearing on accuacy brace height or A-T-A?

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

BC25,

It has been my experience that brace height has much more of an impact on accuracy when compared with axle to axle length, especially when all else is equal.

A 36 inch bow with a 6 inch brace height won't be anywhere near as accurate for an average shooter as a 31.5 inch bow with a 7 inch brace height. In my mind there is a certain "level" where the brace height really has an impact on accuracy....and that level is right around 7 inches.

If you were to ask if there was much of a difference between a 36 inch bow with a 7 inch brace height and a 31.5 inch bow with an 8 inch brace height then I would probably say "no", not much....definitely not as much as in the first example for the average shooter.

Hope this helps.



Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/04/2002 11:33:50

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RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

A deeper brace height means there is less string being played out, therefore there is less chance of the string being pulled out of line of it's natural path by the shooter.This is called "amount of forgiveness".

Comparing "apples to oranges" (36" ATA with 6 to a 31" bow with 7) is acheived by the measurement from the top of the cam where the string connects and disappears, down to the nockset via the string. The lesser the distance, the more forgiving it is. Different drawlengths, cam styles, and radius' of them also come into play here, alot of the solos, idlers, or twin cams play out a substantial amount of string. This directly relates to the overall forgiveness of a bow, due to shooter-induced torque on the pivot point of the bow.(which is at the cam/string connection mentioned above) Of course, if one were to put them both in a machine, they would both shoot through the same arrow hole every time. Unfortunately we are human, and need forgiveness to shoot most consistently. All bows pivot in the same spot regardless of reflex/deflex, brace height, ATA, etc, and the only true constant that has any real bearing on the forgiveness at the shot is this movement of the string. The more being played out, the eaiser it is to move out of line. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/04/2002 06:12:45

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Pinwheel,

I was confused by your explanation and was hoping you could expand on it.

At first you said, "...is acheived by the measurement from the top of the cam where the string connects and disappears, down to the nockset via the string. The lesser the distance, the more forgiving it is" Is this measurement taken at full draw? It would seem to me that on long ATA bows, this measurement would always have a tendency to be longer, since it can be substantially longer with the bow at rest. I was always under the impression that longer ATA bows were more forgiving if brace heights were the same. This statement would seem to say that they are not. Out of two bows with the same brace height, this measurement would be longer on a longer ATA bow.

Towards the end you say, "the only true constant that has any real bearing on the forgiveness at the shot is this movement of the string." It would seem to me, that this would be the difference between the previous measurement taken at full draw, and the same measurement taken with the bow at rest. Where am I going wrong on this? Thanks,

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

This is a "no win" situation. The variables that directly affect a proper answer would be: reflex, draw length, and archer capability. At my draw length, I would go for the longer ATA regardless, to a point, of the reflex or the brace height.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

As Len said, this is a "no-win" one. There are so many variables in this question to have an affect on accuracy. The best way is to have a few top-end archers take the 2 bows, shoot them in an indoor target round, and see which one scores the best. I'd bet on the 36" bow. At some point the string angle/axle to axle length has a diminishing affect on accuracy-I think around 30" is pushing it. String angle, riser positioning, cam, brace-height, balance, and physics play the most in accuracy, not to mention the shooter. You can take a Mathews Ultra II, and other bows, and add almost an inch of brace height by placing the string on the shortest draw length peg. That Ultra II is now a 36" bow with a longer draw length, but is it more forgiving? Depends on the arrows used, optimum cam position, and if the most efficient use of physical charecteristics are in play.

A bow is like a complex teeter-toter-vertical and horizontal. Too short, to wobly, unsteady; too long, stable, but too slow, and lathargic. If you look at some of the top end bows, there is less of a change in FPS, when compared to some lesser bows, between draw lengths. This is because the bow is designed to be an effecient machine, making the most of the limb, cam, and riser design/positioning to produce the most speed and power.

Most of the materials havn't change too much over the past 3 or 4 years, but the physics have been constantly pushed to produce optimum performance, within the limits of science. I'd still bet on the 36" bow for accuracy, and a 40" over the 36".

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Straightarrow--

Yes, it is confusing, and as the other guys have commented on, there are very many variables that must be taken into account for each given scenario. I prefer to compare in two different categories, "apples to apples", and "apples to oranges".

In "apples to apples" one would compare two bows of similar design. In this case the bow that has the deepest brace would win, simply because the deeper the brace, the closer the string is to the shooter, and less distance it has to travel to a specific drawlength. This shorter distance takes more pressure on the string to torque out of line, therefore it is more forgiving.

With "apples to oranges", alot more things come into play, and I perhaps mis-spoke on my previous post. Shorter ATA does become critical, but it seems no-one really knows at what point, or how drastic. The amount of string travel from full draw to rest for a specific drawlength always dictates the amount of forgiveness, unfortunately the shorter ATA offsets this to some degree, along with cam design. Much easier to compare "apples to apples" than it is "apples to oranges".

I own both a 41&quot; ATA with a 7 1/4&quot; brace height, and a 31 1/2&quot; ATA with the same brace, and can tell you that the 41&quot; is much more stable. Interestingly, tho the 41&quot; ATA bow is 10&quot; longer than the shorter bow, it only gains 2&quot; in amount of string being played out due to different cam designs. BUT, the distance of string travel from full-draw to rest increases to 3 1/2&quot; extra distance of travel on the shorter bow. If we simply deduct the amount of extra string being played out by the longer ATA bow (2&quot;) from the extra distance of travel of the shorter bow,(over 3 1/2&quot;) it is easy to see that the shorter bow STILL carries an extra distance/forgiveness variable of 1 1/2&quot;. This would be the overall differential of forgiveness between the two, and is why the shorter bow is more critical of form errors, IMHO. If you weren't confused before, you should be now!! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, P12



Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/05/2002 06:05:05

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

I am really confused. I have the specs for the bows in front of me now. The two bows I am looking at are both bowtechs and the cam design looks the same to me. I have shot both bows but can't decide. The 2002 Extreme Solo has A-T-A of 35&quot; and a brace of 6&quot; with a mass weight of 3.5lbs. and the 2002 Mighty Mite has a 31.5 A-T-A and a brace of 7.2&quot; with a mass weight of 3.6lbs. The current bow I have now is a Reflex Xpress solo cam with A-T-A of 38&quot; and a brace of about 6.5&quot; I can shot it accuratly but the Extreme solo is 3&quot; shorter and the brace is .5&quot; shorter. On the other hand the Mighty mite is 6.5&quot; shorter A-T-A and the brace is .7&quot; longer. I like both bows and I am looking for input on which you think would be best for me given what I shot now? I know I will have to make this choice myself and I plan to shot each again before I purchase one but I would like for it to be an educated choice.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

I am a Mathew's man, in fact I shoot for the factory, and this is the same type of choice you would have for say a FX/Feathermax/Ultra II, or the MQ32. Someone might choose the first 3 for various reasons or differences, but I would only choose the MQ32 if I felt the shorter length would be that much more advantagous in the field. The only thing that is substantial you are gaining is the smaller size. If that is a great advantage to you-go with it, if not I'd stick with the 35&quot; bow.

Maybe this opinion isn't very technical, but then again I just shoot and hunt, I don't build them and don't want to. There are alot of people out there who really like those short bows for hunting-I don't blame them, but don't choose it for any other reason than size.

If the MQ32 was such a great shooting bow- more forgiving, faster, or whatever, you would see guys using it on the 3D circuit-but you don't. You do see quite a few guys using the 35-36&quot; bows though. When the money is on the line the shooters only shoot the best. Don't let anybody tell you the pros shoot what their told to shoot-they shoot what they want to shoot. I'm sure it's the same with the two you are looking at.

Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Another thing that has to be taken into consideration is that not all bows with the same brace hight and ATA are the same.You can have 2 bows the same brace hight and one have a more reflexed riser than the other one but they both have the same have the same brace hight due to the angle of the limb pockets. this effects accuracy in the way of tourqe. Some 7 inch brace hight bows will be more forgiving than some7.5 brace hight bows if they have more deflex in the riser design

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Speaking of relex, where are the measurements taken to determine the amount of reflex or deflex? Thanks,

Pinwheel,

I understood most of it, but not the 31/2 distance of travel on the shorter bow. I assume you meant 3 1/2&quot;. What travel distance are you referring to?

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

rtreenut-
Go to www.merlin-bows.co.uk and click on &quot;Tec Talk, then click on &quot;Reflex vs Deflex&quot;. It covers what you are talking about,(you may be surprised) and some of the points I am putting across, as well.

Straightarrow-

Yes, the 31/2&quot; (inches) is the longer distance the string has to travel from full draw to rest on the shorter ATA bow over the longer one due to design, limb angle, cam size, ATA, etc, for the given drawlength.

BC25--

You must give some thought to the application. If you are going to primarily hunt with the bow from a treestand, I'd opt for the MM. It's a great little bow designed especially for that, and can handle an occasional 3D. The ES would be a good choice for the guy who wants to do a fair amount of 3D shooting, but still use it as his hunting bow come fall. There are different bows for different applications, and lately this &quot;new wave&quot; of mid ATA bows with shorter brace heights has come into the picture trying to give the best of both Worlds. Problem is, they were not designed with anything truly specific in mind other than trying to cover everything. They are not as accurate or forgiving as any target equipment, and they normally have too short of a brace for hunting with heavy clothes.(anything with sub-7&quot; brace is IMO too short nowadays) Being longer ATA will hamper you some if using heavy cover while in a stand. This is why I own a bow for each application, rather than one for all. Cost is always an issue, but I'd much rather go out knowing I have the best option for the task at hand. Good luck, good shooting, P12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/04/2002 15:25:04

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Given the rest of the information you listed I would agree with P12's last paragraph.

If you are looking primarily for a hunting bow and you don't want to have to worry as much about having clothing getting in the way or a slight slip in your form then the larger brace height bow would be my choice.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Big,

There is nothing inheritantly inaccurate about short bows, high reflex risers, and short braceheights. However, you must have good form to consistantly shoot that design bow well. I just finished shooting the IFAA North American Field Archery Tournament and the fellow that won shot a Trophymaster bow (Jennings)which has quite a bit of reflex, is fairly short, and has a relatively low braceheight. He shot a 1635 out of 1680 in Bowhunter Freestyle Class scoring better than most of the Freestylers. Needless to say that archer is a rock and a real pleasure to watch shoot. My target bow has an 8&quot; braceheight, deflex riser, and a 41&quot; A to A for comparison. If you have a longer drawlength a short axle to axle bow may present you with some anchor problems because of the acute string angle created by the short axle to axle length.

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

Yep..too many variables take a big part in accuracy other than brace and length...My current #1 bow is 34&quot; axle to axle and i shoot it as accurately or more accurately than any longer bow I've had (Though generally a longer bow is more stable to shoot).


However, I have owned both of the bows you speak of (2001) models and I can say that the Mighty Mite is definitely more forgiving in my hands. Bowtech grips are fairly big, and any extra torque or mistakes show up more than normal when that brace height decreases. The Mighty Mite also balances and holds better both before and after the shot in your hand. It's no slouch if you are worried about speed either. It's as fast or faster than my Darton Maverick w/ over an inch higher brace height (though it has a harder draw force curve).

The Extreme Solo is definitely an apt name...it's an extreme bow. It's not nearly as critical to shoot as some ultra speed bows, but it's not what I'd call forgiving either.

If you would like forgiveness w/ some speed in the Bowtech line then go w/ a Pro 38 or Stalker. The new Patriot looks promising as well (and probably will be my next bow purchase).

JeffB :)

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

well, I wish i hadn't read this thread! ya'll have confused the crap out of me!
One say's A/A is most important for accuracy, one say's braceheight is more
important. I think I'll just get a long A/A bow with a long braceheight<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

That would be your safest choice bogobble...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: For you techies Brace Heigth, ATA and accuracy
 

IMO brace height is more important than A-to-A. A short brace height can really bring out flaws in form. Short bows are easier to cant (hold crooked) but doesnt neccesarily make it less forgiving.