Update: Tuning (round #3)....Finally got it !!
 

Zebra string stretch.......even on the new ' 03' s !! [:@] Heard a popping noise and figured out my string was jumping off it' s roller.

My LX was originally set up and shooting good with the arrow level and even with the berger button hole.

Had to get the string twisted this week and picked my bow back up yesterday. My bow was not noticably out of time and only required a couple of twists. Went to shoot after getting it back and was hitting high (12 " ). Lowered my rest and grouping good at 20 yrds (1" ) and bullet holes through the paper. But now my arrow is going downhill, crossing at the bottom of the berger button hole.

String loop is in same location on serving(hasn' t slipped). Peep appears to be in same location and has been tied in since new. My ata is correct , at 35 3/4" and my brace height is 6.5" ,but hasn' t been exactly 6 5/8 since I put the Leosch grip on. Checked tiller and top is 9" and bottom is 9 1/8"

What do ya' ll think ?

RE: Tuning (round #2)
 

If they twisted your string and didn' t reposition the nock, etc. compared to where they were before, could it be that the nock didn' t move in relation to a spot on your string, but it could now be off in relation to your rest?

Just a thought.

RE: Tuning (round #2)
 

I guess that' s what I' m thinking too.

But should I lower my nocking point and start over? It' s already worn down my serving where it is now.

Or since it paper tunes good........should I keep shooting groups and see how good they get at 40,50,60 yrds ? My other two Mathews shot best a little nock high.

All this tuning ........gives me a headache sometimes ! And I still don' t know if I' m doing it right !! [:' (]:D

RE: Tuning (round #2)
 

Whenever I have a change like that, I tend to take stuff off and start completely from scratch. Hasn' t let me down yet...

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

Well , I went back and spent 3 hours at the shop yesterday.

Re-positioned the nock. Set the timing exact . Check all measurements. Center shot was adjusted.
Seems to be shooting pretty good and my arrow is back even with the berger button hole.
I had to move my sight back to the right to hit correctly.

I know how a lot of you have said that paper tuning is just a starting point. But how can I get a good tear now and with string creep and my center shot off still have gotten a good paper tear ???Am I doing something wrong......has anyone else ever had this happen ?

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

I don' t see anything wrong with paper tuning. I think it' s far more than a starting point. If you are consistently getting good tears, then your arrow is coming out of your bow in near perfect flight(it' s impossible for anything to be perfect) and now all you have to do is adjust your sights to sight it in. Everyones always talking about this group tuning method that when finished doesn' t leave your bow shooting bullets through paper. If your not getting bullets through paper then your arrow is not coming out of your bow in a near perfect flight...a nock high, left, or right tear indicates that when shooting with fixed broadheads, there will be another variable in the flight of the arrow at about 6 feet out of the bow...and that will be the windplaning on the blades of the broadhead. I really don' t believe you can get good, harmonious arrow flight if you are not getting bullet holes while paper tuning. It' s theoretically impossible, the laws of physics does not allow it. Sure there are some who can still get good groups by group tuning, but not the best they can get in my opinion.

Sorry guys, had to stir the pot...

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

It' s entirely possible to get good paper tears and have a totally crappy tune on the bow. It' s happened to me. I was shooting great holes at 5 yards, 7 yards and 10 yards but my centershot was way off. A shop set up a bow for me shooting great holes, but my nockset was nearly an inch below square.

Paper tuning is NOT the last word. It' s a tool, and an unreliable tool at that.

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

Thanks Authur P . !!
I am trying to figure out this fine tuning and feel like I am getting further away....than closer , to figuring it out .[8D]
This is the part of bowhunting that I think is going to drive me crazy.

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

Well, I guess I shoulda said paper tuning CAN be an unreliable tool. I know some guys swear by it and get good results but it can also leave you tearing your hair out.

I' ve been at this long enough to eyeball my centershot pretty close. Set my tiller so that the bow stays level when I draw, not pulling up or down. Set my nock point a bit over square. Then I start shooting groups. I get good at 20 yards then move to 30 and compare point of impact. If my centershot is off, the arrows will be off to one side at 30. I' ll move whichever way I need to split the difference, then sight back in at 20. Then I' ll move to 40 and repeat. I' ll do that all the way out to 60 yards. At 60 yards, I' ve got plenty of time to see the arrow in flight. If I' ve got any porpoising, I can either move the nockset a bit OR adjust my tiller a bit to straighten up the arrow flight.

When I' m satisfied with my centershot and arrow flight, then I shoot broadheads to see how they fly. I' m not one of those that believes broadheads MUST impact right with my field points. As long as they group closely, all the way out to 60 yards, then I' m satisfied. But, if I see a tendency for my groups to drift off to one side further and further at the longer distances, I will adjust centershot a tad more.

I' ve tuned a compound that way for more than 20 years, with fingers and release. Sometimes it yields a bullethole in paper, but most often it doesn' t.

But the whole process begins with the arrows. If your arrows are underspined, nothing will work. Overspined isn' t as critical, but you will never get the accuracy you want. If your arrows aren' t straight, each one will come off the rest slightly differently and that will make tuning a nightmare. Having great arrows is really far more important than having a great bow, super-gee-whiz arrow rests, gold plated sights or million dollar releases. Too many people have lost sight of that rule and hang all kinds of expensive doodads on their megabucks bow, but cheap out on arrows.

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

Arthur.......thanks again for the advice !!

I tried your method this weekend and it is working good.
I was dead on at 20 and 30. 40 was off a little.......made an adjustment and was dead on and getting 1.75" groups. Went back to 20 and barely re-sighted.
Went to 50 and got 2" groups !
Went to 60 and was tired......getting a 6-7" group, level but right to left spread out.
I' ll have to work on that later ! I am obsessive........never satisfied........ever!! ;)

But my confidence is back!! :D

BTW- Have not shot through the paper yet ! [:-]

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

First things first: Arthur, I’m quoting part of your last paragraph for my sig in the future! :D

I, like Arthur, am not convinced paper tuning is the be-all, end-all tune. Proper arrow-spine is critical, and I’ve had several bows that would paper well w/ shaft size X, but the arrow shafts in question would not group because they were slightly under or over spined. All a good bullet hole is guaranteeing is good flight (and not even that all the time), not necessarily best accuracy.

This is why I prefer tuning an arrow to the bow, as opposed to tuning the bow to the arrow if at all possible. I rarely paper-tune these days. It’s a lesson in frustration for most folks I think. It can give false information and cause one to try and tune out form problems like bow-hand or string torque. E.g. you were torque-ing the bow consistently and adjusted centershot till you got a pretty clean hole. Now you go and make a good shot with no torque or a different amount of torque and your arrow corkscrews downrange….now you are more frustrated than ever…and reinforce the thought that you were shooting with better form when you were not.

I’ll set centershot as per the manufacturer rating (or what I’ve found out myself) or eyeball when I don’t know what it is. I set nock points at 1/8” for straightline singles, duals and C.5’s, 3/16” for non-straightline singles, and then float the rest if needed. Usually at my specs, a 400 class or 340 class shaft will yield great flight, but one or the other will group better at 30 yards plus. On occasion I have to adjust point weight, fletches (feathers or vanes) or go w/ a in-between size (CX300) to nail things down.

For my Patriot I just picked up 6 weeks ago or so, It was a fairly easy tune. I knew the rough measurement for centershot and set the arrow rest there. I tied in my loop at 3/16” high based on previous experience. Once I got the draw stop set perfect, I worked on groups. I was initially shooting 3-49 spine class shafts out of it, and noticed I was getting a bit of flip up and down. I micro-ed my rest and brought the arrow up a tad and the arrow flight was very good. I then started shooting groups. Up to 25 yards, the arrows grouped well, but not as well as I thought myself and the bow could do. At 30 , 35 and 40 yards they started to open up left and right. I would have dropped my tip weight from 100 to 75 grain to stiffen them up, but that would have made my FOC goofy. So I grabbed some 340 class shafts and put the rest height back to the original position. Arrow flight was very good from the get-go. Groups were very good out to 40 yards, but they were strung out a bit high & low the further I got, but lefts and rights were perfect. The groups looked like rungs on a ladder viewed from the side. Tweaked my rest height up a tad and now the arrows came in. The whole process w/ both arrow shafts took me about 40 minutes or so just taking my time between groups. Had I kept trying to tune that 3-49 to the bow, I would have been there forever adjusting & re-setting my rest left and right, my poundage, spring tension, a million different things. By getting the “perfect” spine from the start, tuning was a breeze, and I know that if something goes out of whack it will be very easy for me to get the bow shooting well again, because I had so little deviation from my initial “standard” measurements/settings.

When I do paper, I prefer that the arrow is leaving a bit tail left (RH), and a bit high, as that gives the shaft some “direction” The arrow is forced to correct itself the same way each time (consistency). When you make a form goof w/ a perfect bullet hole, that arrow is like a knuckleball…it could go anywhere and do anything and there’s no “pre-load” for it correct back a certain way. (Similar reason as to why I’ve gone back to conventional rests vs. drop-aways: better guidance)

I don’t believe my methods are for everyone, but I do believe they work well for people like myself, who are not champion archers w/ impeccable form. I feel it adds some forgiveness to the set-up through added consistency. With the way I shoot, I need all the help I can get.

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

EXACTLY!

CBM - That lateral spread at 60 is why I like a fine micro adjust rest. I can tweak it just a fraction of a half a hair and see if it closes up. If it opens up further, I know I went the wrong direction and I go back the other way. With a WB, I don' t know if you can make adjustments that fine though.

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

The whisker biscuit does in fact accept fine adjustments in tuning. Fine adjustments are often overlooked with this rest when people papertune and see instant bulletholes and think that everything is perfect. Paper tuning is a starting point, its something akin to bore sighting a riflescope, you mat be close but there are still some adjustments that can be made. Good luck hunting!

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

Although paper-tuning is not the final word, it is a very good tool that is part of a multi-process.

Paper tuning is not to confirm how accurate you are shooting or how tight your groups are. Paper tuning is used primarily to determine how true and stable the flight of the shaft is subsequent to the basic adjustments of center, nock height, draw eight vs. spine, rest tension, etc..

If you know how to precisely read what the hit on the paper is revealing, and know how to separate form and release-caused flight deviance' s from improperly tuned accessories, it (paper tuning) is an excellent tool to assist you to correctly and finely tweak the gear and your form.

If the paper says your shaft is flying true and stable from varied yardage, but you know that your gear or form that affects stable flight is not proper or properly adjusted, you don’t know how to read the paper.

That' s my story and I' m stickin' to it! ;)

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)
 

C903, I am so very curious to know something. How do YOU read a round hole with 3 slices?

RE: Update: Tuning (round #2)....Finally got it !!
 

Well guys I am satisfied enough to lock everything down. Thanks for all the help...........bear hunting Sept.2nd ........here I come !! :D

I got my 20 yard down- 40 yrd 2-3" groups- 60 yrd 3-4" groups .....consistantly getting 2 arrows within an inch at 60(in the black on a 3" painted circle on a Block target) and the other randomly within a few inches.

Had to start over with paper tuning again today. Quickly resolved that......went to shooting 20-40-60 groups and adjusting.

Finally ......just getting a slight low/left tear.
Tried bareshaft shooting again(with tape in the fletching area this time) and getting within 3" left at 20 yards and my arrow is still a little sideways. Guess my arrow is a little over spined , but I' m going to live with it for now !! Got some Wasp Boss Bullets on the way....I' ll let you guys know how they shoot out of this set up !! Thanks again-Brent

RE: Update: Tuning (round #3)....Finally got it !!
 

Ok, now we' re splittin hairs.;) If I' m gonna keep up with you guys, I gotta know.
Are they blond, red, or brown?[:o]:D

Excellent [:-]

RE: Update: Tuning (round #3)....Finally got it !!
 

RED, naturally. LOL

RE: Update: Tuning (round #3)....Finally got it !!
 

[8D]