Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

http://www.xcelarchery.com/index.htm

Looks interesting. Good thing I' m not in the market for a new site or anchor option...

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Looks like a better hind sight

But you have to use there ugly front sight:(

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

If you want the finest and most rugged hunting sight in the world that you don' t need a peep with, look no further than the Eradicator.
In fact, the most rugged hunting sight period! ;)
http://www.eradicator.com


Sag.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Rangeball-
Looks interesting.....how solid are the " x" s? I see they are made of Dacron...will they wear in some way???

Sag- Forgive my ignorance...perhaps I am missing something huge here......
The Eradicator website is not that good at describing or showing the benefit of the product...can you share what the upside is? This quote kinda baffles me.... taken from their website:

" From a tree or on the ground, our sights
shoot the same. (No form is involved)"

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Sag, very little info is given on their website (which is 3rd-grade quality). They don' t give dimensions or weight, not even a photo of it on a bow. It' s possible this stuff is there and I can' t find it. The website is so poorly designed that I might be missing it.

It would seem to me, that this sight must be very long to be effective. Kind of like, comparing a pistol' s sights to a rifle' s.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Sag, I came very very close to ordering that sight two years ago. The price tag kept me away :)

Springgobbler, I have no idea, I just saw this sight advertised in a magazine and checked it out. I' ve never laid hands on it.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Guys,

I hadn' t been on the Eradicator website in awhile.
They have changed it a bunch. For the worst it seems!
Of course form is involved in any shot with a bow.
That is a dumb statement on their part!
You must have a consistant anchor for the Eradicator to work for you.
Just as you would with a peep and target sight.
You sight it in the same as you would a handgun with a 6:00 hold on the target.
This is a pure hunting sight.
You wouldn' t want it for competition.
It has a short sight radius just like all sights that don' t use a peep.
I have thought about buying the sight in the past because I used to compete with handguns and like its similar format.
A guy I know had one at the range a few years ago and I was impressed by its rugged construction.
He got good hunting accuracy with his.
Just posted the website to let everyone know about this sight.
This hunting season, I am going to use a black 3-D competition sight for hunting with a Classic Scope.
Either an HTM or maybe a new CBE sight.
But I' m going to remove the 6X lens and just use the cross hair.
Jeff Hopkins and a bunch of other pro archers do this.
I' m no pro but I think it' s a good idea. ;)


Sag.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Sag, could you post some links to some of the sights you mentioned? I' ve often thought that a cross hair type site would be great for bowhunting, just line the vertical hair up behind the front leg and put the horizontal hair center of the body line and let fly...

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Rangeball,

All I' m doing is simply using a Moveable Competition sight with a scope for hunting.
I' m a big fan of HTM and like the CBE sights real well too.
You can put a cross hair in ANY scope that has holes drilled into the front to accept them.
You can buy the scopes with cross hair already installed or get some 6lb test high visibility green or orange fishing line and make one up yourself.
I prefer the green colored line best
Some guys then take a fluorescent marker or lipstick and dab the center of the cross hair to make it more visible.
You can use any 3-D sight on the market that has interchangeable lenses.
Just remove the lens and use the cross hair for hunting.
My favorites are HTM, CBE and the new Merlin sight.
I like the Classic scopes that have a threaded retaining ring best but others work just as well.
HTM and CBE make their own scopes which are excellent too.
A Scope comes with the HTM sights.
Here are some links.

http://www.custombowequipment.com
http://www.htmbowsights.com
http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk
http://www.classicarchery.com


Sag.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Hmmm... You got me thinking. I wonder if I could use some of the fishing line you mentioned on my pendulum sight... Hmmmm, that could be SWEET. I could leave my pin in place...

Must tinker...

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Rangeball,

Sure, you can do that if you wish. ;)
Some guys use both an up pin and a cross hair together with their competition scopes.
I have a Sight Master Elite 2000 hunting sight that has both a green cross hair and an orange up pin.
Cross hair in front with up pin behind.
Just line the up pin in the center of cross hair, works great.
That' s why guys like to dab the center of the green cross hair with an fluorescent orange lip stick when they' re not using the up pin.
On the 6lb test line...
That is the size recommended by most but experiment and get the size you can see well and works best for you.


Sag.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

There is no doubt that having a static rear and front sight to align will provide best accuracy, However, you must consider some important aspects of the method before you use the system for bowhunting

Aside from what an individual has trained/conditioned himself or herself to do, that is counter to the norm, there are (2) basic, but critical, differences between using a common bowhunting sight and a sight having rear and front alignment as you would find on a handgun or shoulder weapon.

1. Using a standard bowhunting sight, you quickly position and align the sight on the target, but you (then) bring the " spot" on the deer into sharp focus, and the bow sight (pin, etc.) should be out of focus.

2. When using a sight that has a rear and front alignment system, you must focus on the rear and front sights, with the primary focus being on the front sight. The target/spot (POA) MUST now be out focus or you are not correctly sighting and you will most likely miss your POA.

Unless, when bowhunting, you have always used a sight picture as is used with a handgun or shoulder weapon, you will probably discover that the system does not work for you and that your accuracy in the field has left you as fast as the deer you just missed.

If you believe that you can properly align the rear sight with the front sight, and sharply focus on the front sight and your POA on the deer, your are sadly mistaken. It is not visually possible to sharply focus on a close object and a distant object at the same time. If you try, you will visually (focus) bounce back and forth from the sight to the spot, from the spot to the sight, etc. You will never acquire a proper sight picture, you will condition yourself to always " bounce," and you will face the problem of possibly releasing, or having to release, while using the wrong sight picture.

Some bowhunters believe that a string peep-sight is for alignment. It is not. It is primarily for enabling a consistent anchor and eye level. I know about the technique where you align the sight pin in the peep sight, and that some shooters successfully use the method.

However, I have always had questions regarding the technique. Because the method is the same as I have just described. If you are focusing on the front pin to align the pin in the peep-sight, that means you must bring the (front) pin into sharp focus. The front pin is closer than the deer. How do you sharply focus on a close pin and the spot on distant deer at the same? You can' t.

The shooters using the method of aligning the pin the peep-sight, have to be:

1. Quickly aligning the pin in the peep-sight, locating the pin on the target, and then sharply focusing on the POA; with pin out of focus and kept in position and alignment using peripheral-like vision, or

2. Sharply focusing and aligning the pin in the peep-sight, locating the pin on the target, and aiming with the " spot" out of focus, or

3. Doing both, and focusing (bouncing) back and forth.

If the shooter that is using the above method is consistently accurate in the field, I would say that he or she is using method #1, or method #2 because they know how.

If you are not skilled/conditioned to use a sight system that has a rear sight and front blade/pin, you will probably " bounce" your focus. Worse, just as you are about to shoot, you will unconsciously revert to the standard bow sighting method you have been used to; you will bring the deer/spot into sharp focus and you will leave the front sight of the system out of focus. However, in doing so you will 9unconsciously) lower the rear sight fixture because you no longer need it and it is blocking your view to the front blade/pin. Hence, you will shoot low.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Sorry c903,wrong again.[:-]


A peep when used properly is for centering the pin and that is it.Your anchor should already be established.My anchor is very consistant and I can shut my eyes,pull back,anchor and then open my eyes and the peep will be dead center of my eye.(this should be the goal of everyone.)Now all is left is to put the pin on the target and then center the pin or in my case when target shooting,the housing with the peep.Not saying that using a peep for helping with anchor won' t help with a hunting setup but it is not what is to be concidered by most target shooters to be the correct method.


When aiming,the pin should be almost superimposed on the target.The main point of focus is the spot you want to hit and not the pin.This is easiest with both eyes open.


When using these products for centering the pin,who cares if the back sight is in perfect focus.If the back sight will help align the pin on the target ,who cares.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

TFOX:

Speaking in terms that apply to bowhunting;, not target shooting, if that is what you believe and that is how you do or wish to do, go for it. However, I am quite confident when I say: if you want to be correct, or use the correct sighting methods, I suggest you do some research regarding sight pictures in accordance with the sighting system being used, and for what purpose a peep is PRIMARILY and GENERALLY used by many, or most, bowhunters.

I used a peep-sight for bowhunting for a brief period, but haven' t for a long time. However, when I did, I considered the peep (chiefly) as device to enable a consistent anchor and eye level. When I sighted on a deer, I quickly referenced the pin in the peep but immediately focused on the POA, with the pin out of focus. In other words; once on the peep (bowhunting), my pin became my rear sight and, theoretically, the spot (in sharp focus) on the deer became my front sight.

If a peep is mandatory as a rear sight, chiefly used to align the pin, how is it that many, many, very accurate shooters do not use a peep sight; some using a kisser as an anchor reference, and some using nothing but the placement of their release hand?

As for a sight pin, or a front sight blade being " superimposed" on the " spot," I suppose you could say that about any sighting pin, bead, or blade. Whether the sighting system demands that you bring the " spot" into sharp focus, or the front sight in sharp focus, I suppose you could say the target and the sight appears to be superimposed. However, I prefer to place and align my sight on target, or even reference my sight on target.

You were not listening; or in this case you did not thoroughly read and/or comprehend. Go back, find what I said …,and explained, regarding the two different sighting devices. I know that when using a common bow sight, you bring the (only) the target/spot (POA) into sharp focus; that is what I said. I also know that the rear sight is then out of focus (fuzzy); that is what I said.

RE:

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say with this statement, so I will reply as though I do.

No, when using " these products," the one(s) that have a rear and front sight, you do not want the rear sight in " perfect" focus. However, you still have to align the front sight with the rear sight or you just spent money for a very funny looking pin sight.

As for your statement; If the back sight will help align the pin on the target ,who cares." I have no idea of what point you are trying to make.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

I must be a freak then, as I was able to use the Yikes rear sight very well and shoot very accurately with all my focus on the target. I didn' t have problems initially that I had to deal with, I just installed, lined up, and shot away...

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

OR, you can make this WHOLE argument moot by using a smaller peep, and shooting with both eyes open.
You can use a " peep eliminator" if you need more help with your form...but most importantly, with a small peep, and BOTH eyes open, you can see your target, AND your sight in perfect focus.
If you have fiber optic pins with a light, you can even shoot in near TOTAL darkness. Basically if you can see your target, you can hit it..
Your peep sight IS your rear sight...and gives a MUCH longer sight plane than the peep eliminators (save for the " No-peep" but that one takes your eye off target). A SMALL peep keeps things in focus (take your glasses off, and look through a target peep sometime) It isn' t small to make it easier to keep the pin centered, but to aid in focus.
Your NON dominant eye simply has to look at the target.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Mahly13, welcome to the board...

I use the No-peep and don' t take my eyes off the target. It' s simply part of my sight picture that is easily checked with peripheral vision...

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Rangeball:

I doubt that you are a freak.

If you are focusing on the target, you have comprised the true purpose of a sighting system having a rear and front sight, regardless of the accuracy you have obtained. That is well and good if the method you are using allows you to dispense with a string " peep sight."

However, you are spinning your wheels if you are trying to convince me that you are able to visually, clearly, and precisely hold the front sight centered (center and height) in the rear sight, especially in any small (rear) aperture, and have the POA (spot) in sharp focus at the same time.

If you are sharply focusing on the target/spot after you have aligned your sights, you are now peripherally referencing an out-of-focus front sight to an out-of-focus rear sight to the target when you shoot. When shooting at immobile targets on a range, you have time to " bounce" your focus from sight to target and from target to sight until you are satisfied that your sight picture is consistently correct….. as long as you can hold the bow steady. In the field, with a deer at close range, and having very limited time to shoot, you will not have that opportunity.

The main point I am trying to make is; any person considering installing such a sighting system on a bow for bowhunting purpose, believing that they will be able to use the sight as they would with a handgun or shoulder weapon, is in for a disappointment Especially when they realize they have spent a bunch of money for something that ended up being useful for nothing more than a costly and weird looking " pin" sight.

The one inherent and disadvantageous aspect about a standard bow sight is that the primary sighting pin is out-of-focus when you shoot. That is why a small pin is usually better then a large pin. When focusing on the deer, the pin becomes blurry and is " fuzzy" around the edges of the pin. The larger the pin, the larger the " fuzzy" edges are. I do not believe I have to explain what that can do to your sight picture. However, it is a condition that most bow shooters must and are able to effectively adapt to.

Now enter a sighting system having a rear and front sight.

You now have only one sight pin. That is ok if you are using just one pin without a rear aperture that the pin is dependent on for proper alignment. You simply raise or lower the pin (POA) ….actually, your bow, in accordance with the distance the deer is, and in accordance with the known trajectory of your shaft that you have predetermined. How are you able to do the same if your pin alignment is dependent upon a rear sight aperture?

With a firearm, you raise or lower the amount of front sight that is viewed in the rear sight. To do that, the front sight must be in sharp focus throughout the shot, which means that the POA will not be in sharp focus. No matter how much you would like to have it both ways, you cannot.

So now, you realize you cannot have the pin and the POA in sharp focus at the same time. What do you do?

To be able to adjust your elevation in accordance with the distance the deer is at; you must focus on your front sight to establish the correct height in your rear aperture. That means the deer, and your POA on the deer, will be out of focus. A deer is not white in color with a crisp and defined black circle or silhouette on its body. A deer blends into its surroundings, and your critical POA is blended into the deer' s body…and the deer may be moving. Where do you aim the sight on a target that is (target) not only out of focus, but also has no contrast and may be moving? If you do shoot under these conditions, you will be very lucky to hit the deer, let alone an 8" to 9" kill-zone.

Once you realize that you cannot focus on the sight and your POA at the same time, and that due to the obscured and blended conditions of your (moving) target, especially in shadows or low light; having the " pin" in sharp focus is out of the question, and you now realize that you cannot reference your front sight to the rear aperture throughout your shot.

So now you focus on your " spot." Whoops, big problem! Instead of seeing a small pin that is slightly blurred, but can still be accurately registered on the target, you notice that there is now a large out-of-focus fuzzy blob in your sight picture, caused by the front and rear sight being superimposed. You quickly struggle to find just the " pin." In doing so, you realize you have but one option; you slightly tilt your bow to drop the rear sight out of the way so that you can see, at least, some of the front pin. That adjustment will raise the front pin.

Guess what you now have to do now that you have raised your front pin? Lower your point of aim on the " spot." Guess how much lower your shaft will now hit. That entire process is going on when you have limited time to make the shot.

Buy the system if that is your desire. However, know as many facts as you can, before you do. Most important, never equate " target shooting" exactly to all " bowhunting" conditions.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

C903


What the heck is the difference between sighting on a 3-d target and sighting on an animal.



The process is the same and there is a correct way and a wrong way.Bowhunters generally do it in a way that isn' t correct but sufficient.If you have to move your head to line up the peep with the eye,the peep isn' t in the right place or your anchor isn' t very good.



I know all to well how someone can shoot without a peep or a kisser and be extremely accurate,I myself can do this quite effectively but it causes problems when shooting downhill or uphill,because there is no rear sigtht to keep you in line.As a matter of fact,I have NEVER had a kisser on any bow of mine.




My statement meant that if the back sight is out of focus,you can still use it to help with alignment,so who cares if it is out of focus,it still performs the task it was designed to do.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

What TFOX said has been my experience. I just love it when other people tell me what' s in my mind or how I see things...

Oh well, maybe I really am a freak :)

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

TFOX:


As I said, several times; I know that the rear sight of a system using a front sight and rear sight will always be out of focus. So will the target be out of focus if you are bring the front sight into sharp focus… or reverse.

After you establish proper position of your draw-hand, and you now are ready to set the " peep" height to the level of your sighting eye, tell me, do you " scrunch" or tilt your head forward or backward when you set your " peep" height? I hope not. If you are using a " peep sight," the position of your draw-hand, and your sighting eye correctly positioned at the " peep sight" are now your COMPLETE anchor. Not just your hand position and not just the " peep sight."

And, yes, if your draw-hand is in position, but your head is tilted up or down -or is canted, you would have to adjust your head position (eye level). You surely would not want to tilt or cant the bow to bring the " peep" to your eye…unless you positively know the problem is in your bow hand or form. If you know your draw-hand is in proper position and your head is level, but the sight is out of position, then you know your string may have stretched, or your sight has moved, or there may be a mechanical problem.

I do not know positively what your problem is not being able to accurately shoot uphill or downhill with a rear sight, but I strongly suspect the problem is with your form when making those shots. You are not bending properly, therefore you are coming off your anchor. Even slightly off will hurt your accuracy. On the other hand, you may not be properly adjusting your POA to compensate for the change of in trajectory when making downhill and uphill shots.

As for this comment and belief, I do believe it explains quite a bit.

For one thing, your belief tends to confirm that too many of today' s bowhunters are taking the range and the 3D mentality and conditions to the field, and many are allowing what is done on the range to subordinate what they should be believing and doing under REAL conditions.

I do believe, if I hear one more time someone say; " But that is the gear I use for shooting 3D, and that is how I do it on the 3D course!" I will pull my hair out and go kick a foam 3D deer.[:@]

If you truly believe that it is the same, do not waste your money on a chest freezer. ;)

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

You certainly live in your own little world!!!


Many , if not most archers carry their 3d experience into the field! The whole concept of 3d archery is practice for the real thing. The only trade-ins from 3d season to hunting season for myself and most of the guys on my 3d league are fixed pin sights (for those that use scopes) and a larger peep for low light conditions. Come August the majority of the hunters on our league have already switched to their hunting setup with another month of 3d league to go.

Start kicking your foam 3d deer!

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

BOWFAN:

Really! I missed something somewhere in my travels. I was always under the impression that 3D tournaments were primarily for competitive purposes in which each shooter tries to obtain the highest score possible by using particular gear best suited for tournament shooting ; and that any training and conditioning that can be applicable to real conditions, is a beneficial by-product.

So, what you are saying, is that when you shoot 3D courses; you use/wear all the bow/gear and clothing gear that you do when hunting, and all the actual hunting conditions are experienced, including inclement weather, when shooting at foam deer, paper pictures, standard targets, from tree-stands, and, therefore, shooting a 3D course totally prepares you for all actual hunting conditions.

Now, all you have to do is change your sight and peep size, and then everything is the same. Even to the point, that there is absolutely no difference between shooting at an immobile foam 3D deer on a range/course than shooting at a live deer under actual hunting conditions?

I do not know what you call that type of belief, I call it; reckless and pompous.

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

c903

I didn' t say I had a problem shooting uphill or downhill with a rear sight.I said there is a problem when NOT using a rear sight while shooting uphill and downhill.I was also stating that was without a kisser but for me a kisser is not needed and will decrease my accuracy.I do bend at the waist but with sight paralax being the way it is,there can be some slight problems when trying to sight without a rear sight on a downhill shot.A lot of practice is envolved for this and I am not going to worry about achieving that kind of shooting accuracy because that isn' t the equipment I use.When I speak of accuracy,I am talking extreme accuracy and not 6" circles at 30 yards.I am speaking of pinpoint accuracy.



As far as me moving when I draw my bow back.ABSOLUTELY NOT.I move the string to my face,not face to string.I set my hand in it' s anchor position and run the string across my face and the end of my nose.The peep will be in alignment with my eye,even if I close my eye when drawing and anchoring.Now when leaning way out or making extremely odd angle shots,a peep might be of some use as an anchor but those are exceptions to the rule.That does come into play when hunting and I understand that.But to say the peep is an anchoring device,that imo is a false statement.



3-d is a very good way to practice and is very realistic,with the exception that the target doesn' t move.The time to take a shot is different but you can practice taking quick shots at a 3-d tournament if you wish.No it doesn' t simulate every aspect of hunting but is the best and closest way to practice for hunting without actually hunting.Sure beats the heck out of shooting in the back yard at known distances and familiar targets.We can' t very well go stump shooting with the equipment we use today.All our arrows would be buried up in logs.[&:]


You seem to think that if you have to change a sight that you wasn' t practicing for hunting.That,s crazy.I once shot a 3-d tournament with a scope on my bow.I won that class.I went to the club house and 15 minutes later had the bow sighted in with pins and different arrows.(previous years setup so the pin gap was already established)I went out and shot the toughman course and won that.I proceeded to hunt with the same setup and killed deer with it.




Sure wish I had practiced all year with my hunting setup because I couldn' t have been succesfull otherwise.;)

RE: Another peepless option. Seen this yet?
 

Thats exactly what I' m saying!

We shoot in bad weather , 9 targets out of 28 are from elevated stands at least 15 ft high , and YES! You' d be surprised at how many guys are sweating their nuts off while wearing their full hunting clothes in 80 degree weather a month before the season opens! I shoot in the bowhunters class. The only restrictions are the length of stabilizer , the length of sight , and 2 power scope max.


Where did that come from?:D Exactly where did I say " there is no difference between shooting at an immobile foam 3d deer on a range/course than shooting at a live deer" ??? Is this a tactic you learned on the debate team? Trouble with using that here is everything I say is typed here for everyone to see!;)



You seem to be missing the most important part of practicing! consistancy or repitition! I practice my form to achieve consistancy shot after shot as should everyone! Shooting at 3d targets is good practice for the field! It' s alot different than shooting at a blue face or shooting spots. I believe that was the whole purpose behind the 3d target boom! So archers would have a life like animal without a bulls eye on it to shoot at.

I dont know either! Those were your words , not mine!

Enlighten us all on how you practice for hunting conditions.