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BOWSITE.com
Did anybody see the new feature on the new bows ??.They blind folded a bunch of guys and had them shoot like 12 of the newest bows.All the bows judged and classed.Interesting results [:o]
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I thought it was pretty interesting. Some results were very surprising, like the speed winner:D and the noise winner [:o].
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Yeah, but I wasn' t overly impressed. The blindfolds were supposed to keep brand loyalties from playing a part? Even blindfolded I can tell a Hoyt grip from a Mathews, High Country from Golden Eagle, Darton from PSE... It' s not as blind a ' test' as they make it out to be.
I noticed in some of their elimination brackets that a bow would turn up in a second or third round elimination that wasn' t in the original bracket. How' d that happen? |
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I tend to agree with the other comments. I would give the Keystone Country Store an " A" for effort as it is nice to see someone besides the manufacturers themselves actually doing some sort of comparison between bows. It was the first time that they attempted this so we should expect something " less than perfect" . However, I was equally surprised with some of the results and not much by others.
Arthur, The explanation that Jon Silks gave about the brackets was that they would flip flop a few of them from one bracket to the next in order to keep it more equal. I understand what he was trying to do but think another format needs to be utilized in the future. |
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Next time, leave the blindfolds OFF and choose testers that are capable of making an objective decision based on the test criteria. Seems a better way to do it than try to tell me someone can' t tell the difference between bows by the feel of their grips. Anyway, I do agree with ya, Frank. They do deserve an ' A' for effort.
I did like the elimination tournament concept. Next time they should do a double elimination with winner and loser brackets. |
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Hmmmm. Which brands of bows does Keystone sell? Lets' see---HC won noise, yep, they sell them.... Draw was Hoyt, I assume they have Hoyt too cause they sell Reflex, etc, etc...... You see where this is going, right? Also, How many of those guys are shop shooters/friends? probably most of them if not all. I do not agree with their findings, irregardless. Too bad tests such as this are always based on bias or sales motive--- but it does give a boost to sales of certain products, no question. I suppose any type of boost to the industry is better than none, right?;)
I conducted a similar test and all of my shop shooters concluded that the same bow won all of the tests across the board....imagine that!:D LOL. What one needs to do to conduct a FAIR test is just have an independant company with no links to the industry whatsoever (and no greasing, either!) drive out to a few different clubs in different areas the country,(pull them out of a hat at random) and conduct this same type of test. I guarantee this same test will produce different results. Other than that, it was very entertaining!;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12 |
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I just returned home last nite from my trip to Keystone Country Store to help them with at their Outdoor Heritage Days Festival last weekend.
What a classy operation they are... FWIW, They don' t carry some of the bow lines included in their testing with Mathews being one of them. If my memory sevres me correctly, most of the guys in the archery dept. shoot Hoyts but as you can see, Hoyt didn' t win in every catagory... IMHO, they did a great job of unbiased testing. |
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I' m gonna have to respectfully disagree w/ my bud Pat on this one. :D
{RANT} No malice towards KCS, but personally, I' m not crazy about the way they ran the tests at all..the blindfold thing is ridiculous..as Arthur said..it' s pretty easy to tell the diff between manufacturers grips. And if you are comparing a bow like say the LX or ExVFT w/ and IBO speed of 320 FPS or whatever to a Golden Eagle or Buckmasteror whatever w/ an IBO of 285, you can be pretty damn sure the 285 FPS bow will be quieter and have less recoil. It' s like comparing a .243win vs. 7mm Rem Mag. All bows tested should be decked out the same for speed tests. Same string load. The ExVFT had silencers. The Hoyt too (as they are factory items). Even then you are nto taking into account different materials, strand sizes, etc. Some bows had factory vibration stuff..Hoyt has Limbsavers, Mathews & Jennings have HD' s,Bowtech has VB' s, etc. IMO strip the factory stuff off completely, or shoot them all w/ the EXACT SAME stuff... Bows with similar brace heights should be grouped together. It' s not really fair to do a comparison of a 8.5" brace bow, and a 6.5" brace one for a speed test. All draw lengths should be exactly the same MEASURED length. I didn' t see where this was specified. All bows should be at peak weight..not halfway down the draw weight range..as this affects brace, pre-load, etc. Many manufacturers like Hoyt & Darton rely on that preload more than some other company' s designs. The range of testers was too great. They took 12 guys...did they ALL have the same exact 28" draw length? Being under or over-drawn can have a drastic results on how a bow feels. Bows that are set too short often kick harder (giving the impression of more recoil) because your form get' s out of alignment. Same with going too long. My point is, such tests are never going to be " fair" . There are too many variables to take into account, and much of it is subjective to each individuals tatses. If you want to test techincal matters fine, but you have to control the variables, but even that did not seem to happen in this " test" . As Frank said..I give KCS an " A" for Effort.. But a " D-" for execution, IMO. I' m not overly concerned about what they sell being a biasing factor, but the control methods are poor at best {end rant} :D |
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Jeff.
You should really stop taking those " rant" pills :D But I do agree with you;) |
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What the heck Jeff... You' re dissin me... While I ought to... Bing- Bring out your dead.... Bing-Bring out your dead...LOL...
Anyways, if I' m not mistaken, the tests were done with the bows as they were received from the factories... (other than the draw weight)... Hoyt' s come with Limb Savers, we use VibraBlocks, HC uses their own thing and some companies use nothing at all... I' d say the testing done was kind of cool considering the bows wre basically tested (other than the 65 lb. draw weight) as a dealer would take it out of the box and hang it on the rack for sale... What' s wrong with that?... O.K. Jeff, now this time hit me in the right eye....:D;):D And BTW, From what I read on Bowsite, the testing was only sponsored by Keystone Country Store and not performed by them... One of the testers lives here in Ohio down by Columbus... |
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One of the testers lives here in Ohio down by Columbus... Like I said, it was a great effort. It just was perfromed very haphazardly,IMO |
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What no category for best accuracy while blindfolded???
I agree with those who think this might have been a little heavy on the cheese and a bit light on the meat and potatoes... I got nuthin[&:] -Chief:D |
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I' m not dead yet!
:D |
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Ahhh come on you know Jeff is upset because the LX was faster than the Bowtech.He' s in denial right now:DAll ribbing aside,I give em an A for effort.But I don' t put much faith in " independent" bow testing.It' s too subjective and the speed thing is hard to get apples for apples unless all variables are the same.The way some manuf. set " amo" draw is very unreliable.Norm mulaney is the only guy who' s reports I put alot of faith in.I just can' t believe the mathews faithful are' nt taking the opportunity to get in some shot' s on you bowtech boy' s.They must all be shootin Hoyts now:D
CB |
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I don' t believe they were trying to do an apples to apples test but rather just a what people liked better test.
Here' s a cut and paste from one of the testers. BY MOHICAN: " I was one of the testers and yes it was very difficult shooting twelve bows in groups and narrowing those groups and shooting those against one another to come up with an overall winner in just one Category. I shoot a Bowtech but from the testing the best overall winner was the Hoyt in my hands. It took me about an hour and a half just to complete one of the tests within the groups." It doesn' t seem like he chose his favorite brand so maybe the testing was done fairly. JMHO... |
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I' m not dead yet! You will be soon I feel happy I know, I know, enough of the Monty Python excerpts.... |
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Cajun,
LOL. I was waiting for someone to jump my A$$ about that. :D Actually at the shop the LX’s and ExVFT’s are pretty much right in line w/ one another. You’ll get one LX that is a fps or two quicker than an ExVFT and the next two you pick up, the ExVFT is a bit faster. Like you said, they need to be tested at a measured draw. Some of those brands, including Bowtech and Mathews all run a bit long on draw lengths. Some of them run way long, and do not meet their advertised specs in other ways. For example (and this is just an example, I’m not trying to pick on any one manufacturer) all of the top end PSE bows we get seem to have brace heights running ½” avg shorter than spec. We’ve got a Primos STL on the wall that has a 7 & 1/8" ” brace. My Enforcer was short by 3/8”. The draw lengths run pretty long too, averaging ¾”. All of ‘em show up like that out of the box. You can put twists in the strings and get draw length and brace to specs, but you lose poundage, and speeds really drop off cause the cams are out of whack. :shrug: It just irks me that some neophyte is gonna read that “test” and likely make a purchase based on someone else’s vision of what grip feels best, or has the smoothest draw. This board is proof that we are all different and experience things in very different ways. In addition, one should not make any conclusions until a bow is set-up the way it would be shot under normal circumstances. (i.e. w/ stabilizer, rest, limbsavers, proper arrow, silencers, etc). Over the years I’ve had many, many customers totally change their stance on a bow they initially did not care for once they had shot it w/ a proper set-up. It’s amazing how big the difference is in some cases. E.g. we have got some Martin Cougar III SE’s (parallel limbs, fuzion cam) at the shop that off the rack are a little shocky, thumpy and kinda loud. Set one up w/ limbsavers and a Sorbotek stabilizers and it’s one of the most pleasant shooting bows out there and very,very quiet. I' m rambling now...sorry [:-] |
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Bowtech must have dropped the ball on the ExVFT because they claim they to have an IBO speed that is 10fps faster than the LX. Mathews is claiming an IBO speed of 317 at 65% and 315 at 80% whereas Bowtech is claiming 325-33 on the ExVFT. If your are getting identical setups that the LX is shooting as fast or faster than the ExVFT then Bowtech needs to do some recanting and some refiguring. Which bow has the smoother draw cycle and the better transition and valley?
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You need to look at the tested specs though...
The bows were all tested at 28" draw (?) whether either one was actually 28" draw we' ll never know. Another thing I didn' t see mentioned was the let off settings for the bows. I know BowTech ships their singles at 80% let off. We don' t know about what the LX was shipped at... The ExVFT is rated at 325-333 fps at 30" draw however it drops off to 302-310 at 28" draw. If you' ll notice, the ExVFT loses some efficiency from 30" down to 29" since it' s rated at 311-319 at 29" . Then from 29" down to 28" the efficiency pretty much levels out. Like I' ve said above.... Other than the 65 lb. draw weight, the bows were tested as they were out of the box... Just my observations... |
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SA,
I haven' t done any 30" vs. 30" testing. I know what some guys are getting out of the bows @ 30" , but the control methods were nil, so I' m loathe to make any assumptions. I was commenting on shorter draw lengths, 28" & 29" in particular. Mathews ships at 80% for the LX btw. As far as my personal feelings goes, I find the LX and VFT to draw very similar. Both ramp up a bit on the back end at my draw but roll over smoothly (bowtech has improved the I-cam for this year). I prefer the ExVFT' s valley @ 65% because it does not seem as narrow as the LX' s at the same %. However, I' ve made no bones about that fact that I find Bowtech' s I-cam works extremely well for me. Again, personally, I have much preferred my Legacy models over the LX in most every area. The LX has a little bit better balance, but I' ve seen some goofy things with the machining on the Mathews HP cam that turns me off , despite the fact the LX a very nice drawing and shooting bow. |
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While it was an interesting test, I never get too excited with human testing. Opinions vary, and bias enters even when blindfolded.
I' d prefer as many tests as possible to be recorded on a machine by an independent company that doesn' t sell bows. I would prefer all draws lengths measured to be the same. I' d rather a machine recorded the decibel level, opposed to a subjective opinion . I would also think there should be something that could measure recoil and vibration, with the bow held by a stand or something other than a person. Maybe a slow motion video could record things like nock travel or recoil. Their test was a good start and is better than reading manufacturer ads. Let' s hope it' s taken further, down the road. |
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Realistically, that is why we have REAL TECHS that do static and dynamic testing![:o]
It' s now coming around to what I have been trying to state all along---UNLESS you have the machines and/or formulas/knowledge to use them, and take the time to use them to come to a non-biased conclusion, anyones' so-called " tests" are nothing more than subjective opinions intermingled with bias/brand loyalty/personal preference. Bottom line.... You look around the board here, and we all know who' s who in the zoo, what everyone prefers, and what bows we individually will speak highly of, and what ones we won' t. If new bows have attributes of the bows we like, fine, if they have the attributes of bows we dislike, then guess what happens during the " test" .....;) THAT is why I don' t do testing myself much anymore--simply because with two archery businesses to run and a family I have enough to do, and I have vested interests and of course am bias due to my businesses. Most other people who eitehr own a website or archery-related business or shoot for a company or even simply are brand-loyal have their biasms also. Norb Mullaney and Emery Loiselle have been doing these " full" techincal reports for years---they sit in the middle of the road with no bias, and let the tests speak for themselves. They do not cut equipment down, yet they do not talk them up much either. It' s all in the testing and graphs, charts, and factors. It is up to us to read between the lines a little, that' s all. All of this other so-called testing is simply " fluff" for those trying to promote either themsleves or their desired product or products or both, is the way I see it. Why not come straight to the point like I do--simply work for a company, and promote the line? Isn' t that much easier??:D;) I say leave the testing to those who truly know what the h*ll their doing. This will help to squash any possible mis-info or biased reports. Then maybe we can concentrate on important things like shooting or hunting or other " technical" cool stuff....;) Just my own thoughts, good shooting, Pinwheel 12 |
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I read the test report & find it interesting that people jumped on the chance to point out the LX was faster than the VFT, by .4 fps. What I did not see mentioned was the comment that the VFT was the writer' s favorite of the bunch.
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I read the test report & find it interesting that people jumped on the chance to point out the LX was faster than the VFT, by .4 fps. |
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