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travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 10:13 AM

What do you technical pros think?
 
I am working on a new project, as for the Dual Laser bow tuners are out. This project is patent pending as well. Saying that, I'm working on a hand held release mechanism that hooks on your string and rolls on a roller, as you draw your bow it will slide up or down to find your exact nocking point! After finding your exact nocking point it will then clamp a nocking ring there and then you can put your loop on around it. Whats your thoughts? I'm hoping this will be on the market in 6 months or so. Thanks, Travis.

YooperMike 10-13-2010 11:00 AM

I'm FAR from a technical pro, but maybe i'm not visualizing this correctly: How will the device work while the bow is being drawn. Even if there are no nock rings on the string, a release will slide to the point of least resistance in the "triangle" created between string and riser. In my mind, wouldn't you have to draw the bow by some other means other than using a release or anything else on the string, or draw the bow and somehow have it remain at full draw with nothing on the string for your device to actually find the precise nocking point?

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 11:10 AM

True Nock
 

Originally Posted by YooperMike (Post 3701568)
I'm FAR from a technical pro, but maybe i'm not visualizing this correctly: How will the device work while the bow is being drawn. Even if there are no nock rings on the string, a release will slide to the point of least resistance in the "triangle" created between string and riser. In my mind, wouldn't you have to draw the bow by some other means other than using a release or anything else on the string, or draw the bow and somehow have it remain at full draw with nothing on the string for your device to actually find the precise nocking point?

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, before anything is on your string you will draw your bow with the True Nock finder which rolls up or down your string to find the perfect V, then squeezing your trigger will clamp a small nocking ring around your string, allowing you to apply your Loop top and bottom of your ring, then you take the ring off and your set.

YooperMike 10-13-2010 11:19 AM

Ahh, ok. I didn't realize you drew the bow with your nocking tool. Not trying to be a smart-a$$ here, but how would this be different than clipping a release on there and marking the string? I understand that it's one-stop shopping if you are going to use nock rings, but for someone like me that doesn't use them, i'd rather just mark the string and tie a loop and not have to mess with removing the nock rings.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 11:31 AM


Originally Posted by YooperMike (Post 3701583)
Ahh, ok. I didn't realize you drew the bow with your nocking tool. Not trying to be a smart-a$$ here, but how would this be different than clipping a release on there and marking the string? I understand that it's one-stop shopping if you are going to use nock rings, but for someone like me that doesn't use them, i'd rather just mark the string and tie a loop and not have to mess with removing the nock rings.

Using the roller is more exact, and it clipping on a nocking ring will allow 1 person to do this job, it would be really hard to mark it at full draw without another person.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 11:36 AM

My products are not to take away from any pro shops, as for I have alot of respect for the owner of my home town bow shop which is 40 mins away. My products are to allow any archer to set up his/her bow at home, and to be successful at it.

bigbulls 10-13-2010 01:12 PM

Why would you need to draw the bow to mark where you are going to install a loop? There is absolutely no reason to at all. If you tie a loop at the true center, which is what this will do if I am underastanding correctly, of the string at full draw you are going to tie it about 2 inches too low.

Have you ever tried to draw a bow with out any nocks on the string? The release will slip straight to the cam before the string gets 8" back.

I honestly think you are making setting a bow up far more dificult that it should or needs to be.

Set you rest so that your arrow crosses the berger button hole. Slide the nock und of the arrow so that it is 1/16th of an inch nock high. Mark the string with a sharpie above and below the nock and tie a loop.

I understand that you are coming up with new ways to do things and inventing new products but you are honestly turning a simple 5 minute job into a chore.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by bigbulls (Post 3701651)
Why would you need to draw the bow to mark where you are going to install a loop? There is absolutely no reason to at all. If you tie a loop at the true center, which is what this will do if I am underastanding correctly, of the string at full draw you are going to tie it about 2 inches too low.

Have you ever tried to draw a bow with out any nocks on the string? The release will slip straight to the cam before the string gets 8" back.

I honestly think you are making setting a bow up far more dificult that it should or needs to be.

Set you rest so that your arrow crosses the berger button hole. Slide the nock und of the arrow so that it is 1/16th of an inch nock high. Mark the string with a sharpie above and below the nock and tie a loop.

I understand that you are coming up with new ways to do things and inventing new products but you are honestly turning a simple 5 minute job into a chore.

Bigbulls, I like how you stand by your word. 5 min job into a chore? Watch my video of tuning in a Mathews switchback, I can set your nocking point off the center of plunger hole, laser in your arrow both ways, and set your sights from left to right all in 5 mins, so where are you coming up with a chore? Time is valuable to some people!

YooperMike 10-13-2010 02:01 PM


Originally Posted by bigbulls (Post 3701651)
Why would you need to draw the bow to mark where you are going to install a loop? There is absolutely no reason to at all. If you tie a loop at the true center, which is what this will do if I am underastanding correctly, of the string at full draw you are going to tie it about 2 inches too low.

Have you ever tried to draw a bow with out any nocks on the string? The release will slip straight to the cam before the string gets 8" back.

I honestly think you are making setting a bow up far more dificult that it should or needs to be.

Set you rest so that your arrow crosses the berger button hole. Slide the nock und of the arrow so that it is 1/16th of an inch nock high. Mark the string with a sharpie above and below the nock and tie a loop.

I understand that you are coming up with new ways to do things and inventing new products but you are honestly turning a simple 5 minute job into a chore.

bigbulls, why is that (red text above). Like I said, i'm not a techie, but my pea-brain can't wrap around why the nock is low when centered at full draw. I've always tied my loops on the same way you described, which is likely why I don't understand the 2" low.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 02:18 PM


Originally Posted by YooperMike (Post 3701691)
bigbulls, why is that (red text above). Like I said, i'm not a techie, but my pea-brain can't wrap around why the nock is low when centered at full draw. I've always tied my loops on the same way you described, which is likely why I don't understand the 2" low.

TY YOOPERMIKE! He is probably talking about a cam and a half bow? But anyhow,, arrow should be launched from equal amounts of force from top and bottom. Even on a cam and a half bow the top wheel accounts for the differences and spins faster to accomodate the differences, but is smoother.

bigbulls 10-13-2010 03:01 PM

Measure from the top axle to nocking point and from the bottom axle to the nocking point. It is not in the center of the string. If you put your loop or nocking point in the dead center of the string (which is where this tool sounds like it would put it) it is going to be at least an inch too low.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 03:44 PM


Originally Posted by bigbulls (Post 3701726)
Measure from the top axle to nocking point and from the bottom axle to the nocking point. It is not in the center of the string. If you put your loop or nocking point in the dead center of the string (which is where this tool sounds like it would put it) it is going to be at least an inch too low.

This is because everyone is set in thier own ways and have been going off the plunger hole as I have for along time. I just went to the garage and lasered the riser shelf of my Mathews Switchback XT, it was an inch off center, raised the laser a half an inch and it was perfect center. Now knowing this, my broadheads have to be turned so that they will not hit the shelf. I just lasered in the riser shelf of my PSE X-Force and the shelf was dead center, and it is a twin cam bow. I would think that the riser shelf should be dropped atleast 5/8 of an inch so that the bow can shoot an arrow with a broadhead perfect center?

bigbulls 10-13-2010 06:15 PM


I would think that the riser shelf should be dropped atleast 5/8 of an inch so that the bow can shoot an arrow with a broadhead perfect center?
Correct, but the problem with doing this is that you would also have to lower the throat of the grip by the same amount. The grip on my destroyer is already a full inch below dead center. The farther you move the grip below center the less balanced the bow becomes. There has to be a compromise between the nocking point and throat of the grip.

This is why manufacturers like Bowtech and Hoyt have chosen to sculpt out the riser shelf instead of leaving it flat like most other manufacturers do. It moves the arrow closer to true center with out adversely effecting the position of the grip.

For general information..... the top edge of the shelf on my destroyer is dead center also. I couldn't position a nock or loop dead center of the string.

travis_ranger2000 10-13-2010 08:23 PM

Thanks!
 

Originally Posted by bigbulls (Post 3701859)
Correct, but the problem with doing this is that you would also have to lower the throat of the grip by the same amount. The grip on my destroyer is already a full inch below dead center. The farther you move the grip below center the less balanced the bow becomes. There has to be a compromise between the nocking point and throat of the grip.

This is why manufacturers like Bowtech and Hoyt have chosen to sculpt out the riser shelf instead of leaving it flat like most other manufacturers do. It moves the arrow closer to true center with out adversely effecting the position of the grip.

For general information..... the top edge of the shelf on my destroyer is dead center also. I couldn't position a nock or loop dead center of the string.

Lots of good information here!! So no matter how perfect I want to tune a bow sometimes it won't be perfect.

bigbulls 10-13-2010 08:52 PM

Well, you can certainly get a bow perfectly tuned... or at least as close to perfect as a human can get. ;)
The bows just aren't going to be manufactured with everything perfectly centered and square. So you just gotta tune with this in mind.

bronko22000 10-14-2010 04:12 PM

Sorry travis but I have to agree with Bigbulls. Sure, getting hi-tech is great but there are places where it is simply not necessary. I fear you may be spending your time and effort (as well meaning as it may be) on something that can be done with a bow square - or even the naked eye to some people, to put in a nock set.
And in any event, the initial nock set is just to get you close anyway. Depending on your arrow spine there will probably always be some minute adjustments that must be made to the rest and/or the nock set to have you bow finely tuned to shoot both field tips and broadheads to the same POI.

TFOX 10-14-2010 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by travis_ranger2000 (Post 3701976)
Lots of good information here!! So no matter how perfect I want to tune a bow sometimes it won't be perfect.


The closest way to get "perfect" is at full draw,you would be amazed how much goes on when a bow is drawn.Your laser tool is neat but try it in conjunction with a hooter shooter to see how much changes.Believe it or not,many bows centershot does not run down through the center of the limb bolts,many are just outside of that.There is induced torque from the shooter and cable guards.No matter how we try to eliminate it,we can't.A shoot through does come close.

travis_ranger2000 10-15-2010 06:04 AM

Full Draw
 

Originally Posted by TFOX (Post 3702594)
The closest way to get "perfect" is at full draw,you would be amazed how much goes on when a bow is drawn.Your laser tool is neat but try it in conjunction with a hooter shooter to see how much changes.Believe it or not,many bows centershot does not run down through the center of the limb bolts,many are just outside of that.There is induced torque from the shooter and cable guards.No matter how we try to eliminate it,we can't.A shoot through does come close.

This was the whole idea of the True Nock. This is true about the center shot, on these bows I square the "TRUE SHOT" by setting the laser with your limb bolt, and then sliding laser over to top cam or wheel, and it will run right down your string, if bow isn't real close and arrow whips, I will even square the "TRUE SHOT" to the top wheel or cam and it usually shoots without whipping. The "TRUE SHOT" will even allow you to draw an arrow and another person laser the arrow while at full draw, telling you what your arrow is doing at full draw.

TFOX 10-17-2010 11:50 AM

The cam and full draw are the best way to go imo.BUT,you still need to group tune(target setup) and broadhead tune (hunting setup) to ensure the absolute best tune to your own personal grip and shooting style.

rynigner 10-17-2010 12:10 PM

Kinda curious as to why you lasered your Mathews? The shop I worked out we were told by Mathews that you couldn't laser to find center shot... They recommended standing behind the customer at full draw to set the rest. We ended up using a ruler to set the rests close, and explaining how and why it was up to the customer to dial it in minutely...

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by rynigner (Post 3703915)
Kinda curious as to why you lasered your Mathews? The shop I worked out we were told by Mathews that you couldn't laser to find center shot... They recommended standing behind the customer at full draw to set the rest. We ended up using a ruler to set the rests close, and explaining how and why it was up to the customer to dial it in minutely...

With my new product, you can either square the Dual laser jig to the bow or you can square it up to the top cam or wheel, from all the test that has been done with the "TRUE SHOT" one way or the other always sets your arrow perfect or real close. I have Lasered in both of my personal bows and they are deadly right off the jig. In the yrs past shooting a short fast bow it has always taken forever to get it tuned, now it takes me 5 mins to set my nocking point, laser in my arrow, and shoot in my sights from right to left. Back to the Mathews, it shoots perfect being lasered in!

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 01:05 PM

Here is another one of my thoughts. A novice or new shooter buys a new bow, bow tech eye balls his arrow in, or I laser in his arrow, which one gives the shooter more confidence, and which one makes the shooter work on his/her form more. I don't believe a novice shooter can tune in his/her bow without proper form. I use to live mins from my local bow shop and shot everyday. I wanted my bows precise.

rynigner 10-17-2010 01:12 PM

Interesting concept, but we've always come to find that the majority of bows made shoot best with the arrows set a little "Off Center"

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by rynigner (Post 3703946)
Interesting concept, but we've always come to find that the majority of bows made shoot best with the arrows set a little "Off Center"

Which is true. When I square in the "TRUE SHOT" if it's center of limb, center of cam or wheel, and runs down the string all in one, I laser it in that way, if it don't hit all three points, I square it in to the top cam or wheel, which isn't completely square to the bow. One of the two ways always works.

*twodogs* 10-20-2010 06:35 AM


Originally Posted by travis_ranger2000 (Post 3703944)
A novice or new shooter buys a new bow, bow tech eye balls his arrow in, or I laser in his arrow, which one gives the shooter more confidence, and which one makes the shooter work on his/her form more. I don't believe a novice shooter can tune in his/her bow without proper form.

How in the hell does either method improve a shooters form or give him more confidence? "Look guys my center shot was lasered in, therefore, I have more confidence than you." :confused2:

I say with someone by his side, they can help him correct bad form, what is a laser going to do, is it going to say "Stop canting the bow" or is it going to see that he needs to move the rest left a sixteenth? Not too many people are going to buy a bow off the shelf and run out the door without working with the tech, and any good bow shop would never let that happen.

TFOX 10-21-2010 08:46 PM


Originally Posted by *twodogs* (Post 3705845)
How in the hell does either method improve a shooters form or give him more confidence? "Look guys my center shot was lasered in, therefore, I have more confidence than you." :confused2:

I say with someone by his side, they can help him correct bad form, what is a laser going to do, is it going to say "Stop canting the bow" or is it going to see that he needs to move the rest left a sixteenth? Not too many people are going to buy a bow off the shelf and run out the door without working with the tech, and any good bow shop would never let that happen.

Actually,there is a lot of truth to this mentality and in archery,the mental game is way ahead of the physical ability and equipment.

My son is a naturally gifted archer.Of course I have some advanced knowledge of this game learned through high level national coach with world record students and experience.I talked to this person about coaching my son and he said he would BUT his advice was to buy a couple books and videos from Lanny Basham strictly about the mental side of archery.He said that "I",meaning me could teach him to shoot and all he would do if he took him on was teach him the mental side which he can get from those books.

Don't discount what sits on top of your shoulders.

BUT,you are correct with the rest of your point.New shooters need good guidance.

aread 10-25-2010 05:42 AM

Travis,

You've obviously put a lot of work into your laser jig and have a pretty good tool. But for me it's a tool that solves a problem I don't have and have never had. Even when I was a novice, getting a basic tune was pretty easy. Nock height and center shot (within reason) is just not that important to accurate shooting.

The only use I can think of is for the "techs" in the big box stores. The guy who was stocking the clothing aisle last week and today is working the archery department. But to use your jig, even he needs more training than he is likely to get.

I think that if I saw a tech trying to set up my bow with lasers (except the one for cam lean) I would politely ask for my bow back and find another shop.

Initial set up of nock height and centershot is just a very preliminary step and getting it precise is not as important as being sure that the overall set up is good. IMHO, the most important part of set up is getting the draw length right for the individual archer. After that getting the cams timed and centered is far more important for a novice than nock and centershot. Unfortunately, your jig doesn't help with these except possibly for cam lean.

I hate to rain on somebody's parade when they've put so much of themselves into a tool, but I don't see much of a use for it. Keep thinking like you do, you'll come up with the next big thing one of these days. Is there a way to use your lasers to more accurately adjust cam timing and synchronization?

Allen

TFOX 10-25-2010 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by aread (Post 3708722)
Travis,

You've obviously put a lot of work into your laser jig and have a pretty good tool. But for me it's a tool that solves a problem I don't have and have never had. Even when I was a novice, getting a basic tune was pretty easy. Nock height and center shot (within reason) is just not that important to accurate shooting.

The only use I can think of is for the "techs" in the big box stores. The guy who was stocking the clothing aisle last week and today is working the archery department. But to use your jig, even he needs more training than he is likely to get.

I think that if I saw a tech trying to set up my bow with lasers (except the one for cam lean) I would politely ask for my bow back and find another shop.

Initial set up of nock height and centershot is just a very preliminary step and getting it precise is not as important as being sure that the overall set up is good. IMHO, the most important part of set up is getting the draw length right for the individual archer. After that getting the cams timed and centered is far more important for a novice than nock and centershot. Unfortunately, your jig doesn't help with these except possibly for cam lean.

I hate to rain on somebody's parade when they've put so much of themselves into a tool, but I don't see much of a use for it. Keep thinking like you do, you'll come up with the next big thing one of these days. Is there a way to use your lasers to more accurately adjust cam timing and synchronization?

Allen

I am going to disagree with the importance of centershot.A person will never reach their potential if their centershot isn't set correctly.This is a very important part of accuracy and tune.Try to broadhead tune a bow that doesn't have the centershot set correctly.1 thing is for sure,you will have to move the rest to center for them to tune.(if this is where you are coming from then I kind of agree) I can usually get a very good centershot by eyeball.

The other side of this is most don't understand how hard it is to consistently shoot a bow that has the arrow pointed out or in.This means you need to shoot the bow sideways to get it to hit center.This is a very difficult thing to do.I have tried it and I am a decent shot with good form,imagine a novice that doesn't know any better trying to hit accurately and his equipment is VERY UNFORGIVING.Not saying it can't be shot accurately but it is very difficult.

Then we can get into the discussion of nodes to further understand the importance of centershot.Here is what Easton has to say about it.


travis_ranger2000 10-26-2010 07:39 AM

Nice!
 

Originally Posted by TFOX (Post 3709005)
I am going to disagree with the importance of centershot.A person will never reach their potential if their centershot isn't set correctly.This is a very important part of accuracy and tune.Try to broadhead tune a bow that doesn't have the centershot set correctly.1 thing is for sure,you will have to move the rest to center for them to tune.(if this is where you are coming from then I kind of agree) I can usually get a very good centershot by eyeball.

The other side of this is most don't understand how hard it is to consistently shoot a bow that has the arrow pointed out or in.This means you need to shoot the bow sideways to get it to hit center.This is a very difficult thing to do.I have tried it and I am a decent shot with good form,imagine a novice that doesn't know any better trying to hit accurately and his equipment is VERY UNFORGIVING.Not saying it can't be shot accurately but it is very difficult.

Then we can get into the discussion of nodes to further understand the importance of centershot.Here is what Easton has to say about it.


Very well put together!

aread 10-27-2010 08:08 AM

TFOX,

When it comes to tuning, more precise is better. I think that our disagreement is simply a matter of degree.

When I tune for myself, I'm a little obsessive compulsive, but I have the form to do it and the tools and knowledge to do it.

But I just haven't found that precision tuning is that important to repeatable accuracy.

By precision tuning, I mean that broadheads & field points & bare shafts hit exactly same point at 30 yards. If BH's hit within 6 or 8 inches from the field points at 20 yards, that's not precision, but it's good enough for most archers. At least it is if they reset their sights when they change points.

Last week I put new strings on my bow and didn't have a chance to do more that an eyeball setup before I shot an indoor round. I still shot a 50X (very close to my average) even though the guy next to me was laughing at my corkscrew arrow flight.

No, I wouldn't hunt with this bow without more tuning. My guess is that the BH's would be a couple of feet off of the field points and penetration wouldn't be optimal. The corkscrew is mostly from cam lean and timing which is part of the overall setup that has to be done right before nock and centershot is addressed.

You are right that an arrow that is flying sideways is difficult to shoot accurately, but one that's a little off is not. Again, it's just a matter of degree.

A bow that is set up per the Easton tuning guide is as good as most need if it's done by a tech who is familiar with the specific bow. For example, I would have no problems hunting with a bow that Len in Maryland set up for me, even without paper tuning.

Better is better when it comes to tuning, but we rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns. I tune my bow to near perfection because I enjoy doing it. However, much of what I do doesn't effect accuracy at hunting distances.

Allen

SwampCollie 10-27-2010 10:32 AM

I'm not going to harp on the technical side of things here because as I have written before, 'There are a lot of ways to get a golf ball in a hole.' Tuning a bow can be done with little to no equipment at all or all the latest lasers and tuners and all that fancy mess. It is really up to the tech doing the work.

Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?

I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?

Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.

As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.

I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.

Andy

TFOX 10-27-2010 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by aread (Post 3710100)
TFOX,

When it comes to tuning, more precise is better. I think that our disagreement is simply a matter of degree.

When I tune for myself, I'm a little obsessive compulsive, but I have the form to do it and the tools and knowledge to do it.

But I just haven't found that precision tuning is that important to repeatable accuracy.

By precision tuning, I mean that broadheads & field points & bare shafts hit exactly same point at 30 yards. If BH's hit within 6 or 8 inches from the field points at 20 yards, that's not precision, but it's good enough for most archers. At least it is if they reset their sights when they change points.

Last week I put new strings on my bow and didn't have a chance to do more that an eyeball setup before I shot an indoor round. I still shot a 50X (very close to my average) even though the guy next to me was laughing at my corkscrew arrow flight.

No, I wouldn't hunt with this bow without more tuning. My guess is that the BH's would be a couple of feet off of the field points and penetration wouldn't be optimal. The corkscrew is mostly from cam lean and timing which is part of the overall setup that has to be done right before nock and centershot is addressed.

You are right that an arrow that is flying sideways is difficult to shoot accurately, but one that's a little off is not. Again, it's just a matter of degree.

A bow that is set up per the Easton tuning guide is as good as most need if it's done by a tech who is familiar with the specific bow. For example, I would have no problems hunting with a bow that Len in Maryland set up for me, even without paper tuning.

Better is better when it comes to tuning, but we rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns. I tune my bow to near perfection because I enjoy doing it. However, much of what I do doesn't effect accuracy at hunting distances.

Allen


My point is not with cork screwing arrows as many times we get good "paper tune" when centershot is way out of whack.Those bows even though the arrow is not corkscrewing is VERY unforgiving not only due to the torque the shooter imparts or the improper spine but also due to the arrow not being aligned square with the true center of the bow.This throws the nodes out of whack as well as making someone have to shoot across their body to get the arrow to hit center.In short,when you point the bow at the target,the arrow should be pointed in the same direction.:party0005:

Like you and I both have pointed out,these bows CAN be shot accurately and for you and me,we might be adequate with our accuracy but where I see the issue is with the newby or inexperienced.They need all the help they can get IMO and a properly setup bow will help them more than you and me in a hunting situation.

I am not saying that they need a laser tuned bow.They need a bow that is setup correctly and IMO,centershot is 1 step behind a properly spined arrow.I can usually give them that with an eyeball tune.My eyeball tune will usually have broadheads within 2" of a fieldpoint at 20 yards.;)

aread 10-28-2010 04:31 AM


Originally Posted by TFOX (Post 3710361)
... I am not saying that they need a laser tuned bow.They need a bow that is setup correctly and IMO,centershot is 1 step behind a properly spined arrow.I can usually give them that with an eyeball tune. My eyeball tune will usually have broadheads within 2" of a fieldpoint at 20 yards.;)

This is where we are in complete agreement. An eyeball tune from someone as competent as you is good enough for accuracy at hunting distances.

You're a bit better at the eyeball than I am. I usually can't get closer than 6" or 8".

For any archer shooting any distance, that level of set up is adequate as a place to start. Then the tuning begins. I'm of the opinion that if you ain't shooting, you ain't tuning. Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics. :)

Allen

travis_ranger2000 11-17-2010 06:31 AM


Originally Posted by SwampCollie (Post 3710213)
I'm not going to harp on the technical side of things here because as I have written before, 'There are a lot of ways to get a golf ball in a hole.' Tuning a bow can be done with little to no equipment at all or all the latest lasers and tuners and all that fancy mess. It is really up to the tech doing the work.

Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?

I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?

Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.

As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.

I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.

Andy

Don't take this the wrong way, but here is what I think about what you said: Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?
Then you go on to say there is another tech that sets up twice as many bows as you do! If the way you guys are setting up bows is efficient then why aren't you setting up as many? I guarantee my product will speed you up, and will make your shooters more precise quicker then the old traditional way! Time is money for both parties, the archer and the bow tech. Just my $.02!

travis_ranger2000 11-17-2010 06:40 AM


Originally Posted by aread (Post 3710692)
This is where we are in complete agreement. An eyeball tune from someone as competent as you is good enough for accuracy at hunting distances.

You're a bit better at the eyeball than I am. I usually can't get closer than 6" or 8".

For any archer shooting any distance, that level of set up is adequate as a place to start. Then the tuning begins. I'm of the opinion that if you ain't shooting, you ain't tuning. Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics. :)

Allen

This is not true: Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics. :)
After laser tuning your bow, and then shooting it to see whats going on, if the bow is not shooting perfect as some models may not, do your final adjustments till it is perfect, then put your laser bow tuner back on and record where everything is set, now you can always go back and check your specs to this, which means you can set your bow back to where its perfect in a matter of mins. Out of all the bows that I have laser tuned the only thing that has had to be moved was the sights.


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