What do you technical pros think?
10-27-2010, 09:32 AM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
Posts: 4,420
I'm not going to harp on the technical side of things here because as I have written before, 'There are a lot of ways to get a golf ball in a hole.' Tuning a bow can be done with little to no equipment at all or all the latest lasers and tuners and all that fancy mess. It is really up to the tech doing the work.
Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?
I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?
Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.
As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.
I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.
Andy
Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?
I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?
Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.
As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.
I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.
Andy
10-27-2010, 01:45 PM
#32
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
TFOX,
When it comes to tuning, more precise is better. I think that our disagreement is simply a matter of degree.
When I tune for myself, I'm a little obsessive compulsive, but I have the form to do it and the tools and knowledge to do it.
But I just haven't found that precision tuning is that important to repeatable accuracy.
By precision tuning, I mean that broadheads & field points & bare shafts hit exactly same point at 30 yards. If BH's hit within 6 or 8 inches from the field points at 20 yards, that's not precision, but it's good enough for most archers. At least it is if they reset their sights when they change points.
Last week I put new strings on my bow and didn't have a chance to do more that an eyeball setup before I shot an indoor round. I still shot a 50X (very close to my average) even though the guy next to me was laughing at my corkscrew arrow flight.
No, I wouldn't hunt with this bow without more tuning. My guess is that the BH's would be a couple of feet off of the field points and penetration wouldn't be optimal. The corkscrew is mostly from cam lean and timing which is part of the overall setup that has to be done right before nock and centershot is addressed.
You are right that an arrow that is flying sideways is difficult to shoot accurately, but one that's a little off is not. Again, it's just a matter of degree.
A bow that is set up per the Easton tuning guide is as good as most need if it's done by a tech who is familiar with the specific bow. For example, I would have no problems hunting with a bow that Len in Maryland set up for me, even without paper tuning.
Better is better when it comes to tuning, but we rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns. I tune my bow to near perfection because I enjoy doing it. However, much of what I do doesn't effect accuracy at hunting distances.
Allen
When it comes to tuning, more precise is better. I think that our disagreement is simply a matter of degree.
When I tune for myself, I'm a little obsessive compulsive, but I have the form to do it and the tools and knowledge to do it.
But I just haven't found that precision tuning is that important to repeatable accuracy.
By precision tuning, I mean that broadheads & field points & bare shafts hit exactly same point at 30 yards. If BH's hit within 6 or 8 inches from the field points at 20 yards, that's not precision, but it's good enough for most archers. At least it is if they reset their sights when they change points.
Last week I put new strings on my bow and didn't have a chance to do more that an eyeball setup before I shot an indoor round. I still shot a 50X (very close to my average) even though the guy next to me was laughing at my corkscrew arrow flight.
No, I wouldn't hunt with this bow without more tuning. My guess is that the BH's would be a couple of feet off of the field points and penetration wouldn't be optimal. The corkscrew is mostly from cam lean and timing which is part of the overall setup that has to be done right before nock and centershot is addressed.
You are right that an arrow that is flying sideways is difficult to shoot accurately, but one that's a little off is not. Again, it's just a matter of degree.
A bow that is set up per the Easton tuning guide is as good as most need if it's done by a tech who is familiar with the specific bow. For example, I would have no problems hunting with a bow that Len in Maryland set up for me, even without paper tuning.
Better is better when it comes to tuning, but we rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns. I tune my bow to near perfection because I enjoy doing it. However, much of what I do doesn't effect accuracy at hunting distances.
Allen
My point is not with cork screwing arrows as many times we get good "paper tune" when centershot is way out of whack.Those bows even though the arrow is not corkscrewing is VERY unforgiving not only due to the torque the shooter imparts or the improper spine but also due to the arrow not being aligned square with the true center of the bow.This throws the nodes out of whack as well as making someone have to shoot across their body to get the arrow to hit center.In short,when you point the bow at the target,the arrow should be pointed in the same direction.
Like you and I both have pointed out,these bows CAN be shot accurately and for you and me,we might be adequate with our accuracy but where I see the issue is with the newby or inexperienced.They need all the help they can get IMO and a properly setup bow will help them more than you and me in a hunting situation.
I am not saying that they need a laser tuned bow.They need a bow that is setup correctly and IMO,centershot is 1 step behind a properly spined arrow.I can usually give them that with an eyeball tune.My eyeball tune will usually have broadheads within 2" of a fieldpoint at 20 yards.
10-28-2010, 03:31 AM
#33
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 31
... I am not saying that they need a laser tuned bow.They need a bow that is setup correctly and IMO,centershot is 1 step behind a properly spined arrow.I can usually give them that with an eyeball tune. My eyeball tune will usually have broadheads within 2" of a fieldpoint at 20 yards.
You're a bit better at the eyeball than I am. I usually can't get closer than 6" or 8".
For any archer shooting any distance, that level of set up is adequate as a place to start. Then the tuning begins. I'm of the opinion that if you ain't shooting, you ain't tuning. Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics.
Allen
11-17-2010, 05:31 AM
#34
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bedford, Indiana
Posts: 99
I'm not going to harp on the technical side of things here because as I have written before, 'There are a lot of ways to get a golf ball in a hole.' Tuning a bow can be done with little to no equipment at all or all the latest lasers and tuners and all that fancy mess. It is really up to the tech doing the work.
Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?
I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?
Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.
As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.
I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.
Andy
Travis, and everyone else, what you really have to think about here is exactly how or what good and to what end your product is meeting the needs of the end user?
I set up well over 200 bows a year just myself and we have two other techs in the shop, one of whom sets up easily twice as many as myself. What I want to know is exactly what this device that will likely cost is excess of $100 retail and will now be a potential theft item/tool on the archery work counter and will require special batteries that are expensive and will get left on overnight and die and etc etc..... how is this superior to a $4.99 bowsquare? How is it more accurate?
Additionally, nobody in our shop uses brass nock points except in certain situations where someone has an older ball bearing or gator jaw release and just doesn't want to part with their release... we tie in soft nocks at our shop.
As far as the validity of the true center of the bowstring... I find myself in agreeance with bigbulls, as I usually do considering we share professions in different parts of the country. The sticky on the top of the tech forum on tiller tuning pretty much sums it up for me infact and I don't think it bears repeating here.
I agree with Allen that you are certainly a creative out of the box thinker Travis and you'll do well at whatever you pursue in life... just make sure you are solving a problem that doesn't already have an answer. Best of luck.
Andy
Then you go on to say there is another tech that sets up twice as many bows as you do! If the way you guys are setting up bows is efficient then why aren't you setting up as many? I guarantee my product will speed you up, and will make your shooters more precise quicker then the old traditional way! Time is money for both parties, the archer and the bow tech. Just my $.02!
11-17-2010, 05:40 AM
#35
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Bedford, Indiana
Posts: 99
This is where we are in complete agreement. An eyeball tune from someone as competent as you is good enough for accuracy at hunting distances.
You're a bit better at the eyeball than I am. I usually can't get closer than 6" or 8".
For any archer shooting any distance, that level of set up is adequate as a place to start. Then the tuning begins. I'm of the opinion that if you ain't shooting, you ain't tuning. Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics.
Allen
You're a bit better at the eyeball than I am. I usually can't get closer than 6" or 8".
For any archer shooting any distance, that level of set up is adequate as a place to start. Then the tuning begins. I'm of the opinion that if you ain't shooting, you ain't tuning. Lasers and other gizmos are just for set up. But that's just a matter of semantics.
Allen
After laser tuning your bow, and then shooting it to see whats going on, if the bow is not shooting perfect as some models may not, do your final adjustments till it is perfect, then put your laser bow tuner back on and record where everything is set, now you can always go back and check your specs to this, which means you can set your bow back to where its perfect in a matter of mins. Out of all the bows that I have laser tuned the only thing that has had to be moved was the sights.
