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-   -   What do you technical pros think? (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/technical/331787-what-do-you-technical-pros-think.html)

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 12:47 PM


Originally Posted by rynigner (Post 3703915)
Kinda curious as to why you lasered your Mathews? The shop I worked out we were told by Mathews that you couldn't laser to find center shot... They recommended standing behind the customer at full draw to set the rest. We ended up using a ruler to set the rests close, and explaining how and why it was up to the customer to dial it in minutely...

With my new product, you can either square the Dual laser jig to the bow or you can square it up to the top cam or wheel, from all the test that has been done with the "TRUE SHOT" one way or the other always sets your arrow perfect or real close. I have Lasered in both of my personal bows and they are deadly right off the jig. In the yrs past shooting a short fast bow it has always taken forever to get it tuned, now it takes me 5 mins to set my nocking point, laser in my arrow, and shoot in my sights from right to left. Back to the Mathews, it shoots perfect being lasered in!

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 01:05 PM

Here is another one of my thoughts. A novice or new shooter buys a new bow, bow tech eye balls his arrow in, or I laser in his arrow, which one gives the shooter more confidence, and which one makes the shooter work on his/her form more. I don't believe a novice shooter can tune in his/her bow without proper form. I use to live mins from my local bow shop and shot everyday. I wanted my bows precise.

rynigner 10-17-2010 01:12 PM

Interesting concept, but we've always come to find that the majority of bows made shoot best with the arrows set a little "Off Center"

travis_ranger2000 10-17-2010 01:24 PM


Originally Posted by rynigner (Post 3703946)
Interesting concept, but we've always come to find that the majority of bows made shoot best with the arrows set a little "Off Center"

Which is true. When I square in the "TRUE SHOT" if it's center of limb, center of cam or wheel, and runs down the string all in one, I laser it in that way, if it don't hit all three points, I square it in to the top cam or wheel, which isn't completely square to the bow. One of the two ways always works.

*twodogs* 10-20-2010 06:35 AM


Originally Posted by travis_ranger2000 (Post 3703944)
A novice or new shooter buys a new bow, bow tech eye balls his arrow in, or I laser in his arrow, which one gives the shooter more confidence, and which one makes the shooter work on his/her form more. I don't believe a novice shooter can tune in his/her bow without proper form.

How in the hell does either method improve a shooters form or give him more confidence? "Look guys my center shot was lasered in, therefore, I have more confidence than you." :confused2:

I say with someone by his side, they can help him correct bad form, what is a laser going to do, is it going to say "Stop canting the bow" or is it going to see that he needs to move the rest left a sixteenth? Not too many people are going to buy a bow off the shelf and run out the door without working with the tech, and any good bow shop would never let that happen.

TFOX 10-21-2010 08:46 PM


Originally Posted by *twodogs* (Post 3705845)
How in the hell does either method improve a shooters form or give him more confidence? "Look guys my center shot was lasered in, therefore, I have more confidence than you." :confused2:

I say with someone by his side, they can help him correct bad form, what is a laser going to do, is it going to say "Stop canting the bow" or is it going to see that he needs to move the rest left a sixteenth? Not too many people are going to buy a bow off the shelf and run out the door without working with the tech, and any good bow shop would never let that happen.

Actually,there is a lot of truth to this mentality and in archery,the mental game is way ahead of the physical ability and equipment.

My son is a naturally gifted archer.Of course I have some advanced knowledge of this game learned through high level national coach with world record students and experience.I talked to this person about coaching my son and he said he would BUT his advice was to buy a couple books and videos from Lanny Basham strictly about the mental side of archery.He said that "I",meaning me could teach him to shoot and all he would do if he took him on was teach him the mental side which he can get from those books.

Don't discount what sits on top of your shoulders.

BUT,you are correct with the rest of your point.New shooters need good guidance.

aread 10-25-2010 05:42 AM

Travis,

You've obviously put a lot of work into your laser jig and have a pretty good tool. But for me it's a tool that solves a problem I don't have and have never had. Even when I was a novice, getting a basic tune was pretty easy. Nock height and center shot (within reason) is just not that important to accurate shooting.

The only use I can think of is for the "techs" in the big box stores. The guy who was stocking the clothing aisle last week and today is working the archery department. But to use your jig, even he needs more training than he is likely to get.

I think that if I saw a tech trying to set up my bow with lasers (except the one for cam lean) I would politely ask for my bow back and find another shop.

Initial set up of nock height and centershot is just a very preliminary step and getting it precise is not as important as being sure that the overall set up is good. IMHO, the most important part of set up is getting the draw length right for the individual archer. After that getting the cams timed and centered is far more important for a novice than nock and centershot. Unfortunately, your jig doesn't help with these except possibly for cam lean.

I hate to rain on somebody's parade when they've put so much of themselves into a tool, but I don't see much of a use for it. Keep thinking like you do, you'll come up with the next big thing one of these days. Is there a way to use your lasers to more accurately adjust cam timing and synchronization?

Allen

TFOX 10-25-2010 02:21 PM


Originally Posted by aread (Post 3708722)
Travis,

You've obviously put a lot of work into your laser jig and have a pretty good tool. But for me it's a tool that solves a problem I don't have and have never had. Even when I was a novice, getting a basic tune was pretty easy. Nock height and center shot (within reason) is just not that important to accurate shooting.

The only use I can think of is for the "techs" in the big box stores. The guy who was stocking the clothing aisle last week and today is working the archery department. But to use your jig, even he needs more training than he is likely to get.

I think that if I saw a tech trying to set up my bow with lasers (except the one for cam lean) I would politely ask for my bow back and find another shop.

Initial set up of nock height and centershot is just a very preliminary step and getting it precise is not as important as being sure that the overall set up is good. IMHO, the most important part of set up is getting the draw length right for the individual archer. After that getting the cams timed and centered is far more important for a novice than nock and centershot. Unfortunately, your jig doesn't help with these except possibly for cam lean.

I hate to rain on somebody's parade when they've put so much of themselves into a tool, but I don't see much of a use for it. Keep thinking like you do, you'll come up with the next big thing one of these days. Is there a way to use your lasers to more accurately adjust cam timing and synchronization?

Allen

I am going to disagree with the importance of centershot.A person will never reach their potential if their centershot isn't set correctly.This is a very important part of accuracy and tune.Try to broadhead tune a bow that doesn't have the centershot set correctly.1 thing is for sure,you will have to move the rest to center for them to tune.(if this is where you are coming from then I kind of agree) I can usually get a very good centershot by eyeball.

The other side of this is most don't understand how hard it is to consistently shoot a bow that has the arrow pointed out or in.This means you need to shoot the bow sideways to get it to hit center.This is a very difficult thing to do.I have tried it and I am a decent shot with good form,imagine a novice that doesn't know any better trying to hit accurately and his equipment is VERY UNFORGIVING.Not saying it can't be shot accurately but it is very difficult.

Then we can get into the discussion of nodes to further understand the importance of centershot.Here is what Easton has to say about it.


travis_ranger2000 10-26-2010 07:39 AM

Nice!
 

Originally Posted by TFOX (Post 3709005)
I am going to disagree with the importance of centershot.A person will never reach their potential if their centershot isn't set correctly.This is a very important part of accuracy and tune.Try to broadhead tune a bow that doesn't have the centershot set correctly.1 thing is for sure,you will have to move the rest to center for them to tune.(if this is where you are coming from then I kind of agree) I can usually get a very good centershot by eyeball.

The other side of this is most don't understand how hard it is to consistently shoot a bow that has the arrow pointed out or in.This means you need to shoot the bow sideways to get it to hit center.This is a very difficult thing to do.I have tried it and I am a decent shot with good form,imagine a novice that doesn't know any better trying to hit accurately and his equipment is VERY UNFORGIVING.Not saying it can't be shot accurately but it is very difficult.

Then we can get into the discussion of nodes to further understand the importance of centershot.Here is what Easton has to say about it.


Very well put together!

aread 10-27-2010 08:08 AM

TFOX,

When it comes to tuning, more precise is better. I think that our disagreement is simply a matter of degree.

When I tune for myself, I'm a little obsessive compulsive, but I have the form to do it and the tools and knowledge to do it.

But I just haven't found that precision tuning is that important to repeatable accuracy.

By precision tuning, I mean that broadheads & field points & bare shafts hit exactly same point at 30 yards. If BH's hit within 6 or 8 inches from the field points at 20 yards, that's not precision, but it's good enough for most archers. At least it is if they reset their sights when they change points.

Last week I put new strings on my bow and didn't have a chance to do more that an eyeball setup before I shot an indoor round. I still shot a 50X (very close to my average) even though the guy next to me was laughing at my corkscrew arrow flight.

No, I wouldn't hunt with this bow without more tuning. My guess is that the BH's would be a couple of feet off of the field points and penetration wouldn't be optimal. The corkscrew is mostly from cam lean and timing which is part of the overall setup that has to be done right before nock and centershot is addressed.

You are right that an arrow that is flying sideways is difficult to shoot accurately, but one that's a little off is not. Again, it's just a matter of degree.

A bow that is set up per the Easton tuning guide is as good as most need if it's done by a tech who is familiar with the specific bow. For example, I would have no problems hunting with a bow that Len in Maryland set up for me, even without paper tuning.

Better is better when it comes to tuning, but we rapidly reach a point of diminishing returns. I tune my bow to near perfection because I enjoy doing it. However, much of what I do doesn't effect accuracy at hunting distances.

Allen


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