Off the string or loop
 

Do you shoot off the string or with a loop set up? I,m getting a new bow and been
thinking about seting up with a string loop, have always shot off the string. Would
I gain anything besides a few ft per second?

RE: Off the string or loop
 

You would gain accuracy, less serving wear, less noise, you can let your arrow down w/o worrying about it falling off the string, easier to tune since you don' t have to use plyers to move the nock just twist the loop around the string. The only downside is that you will loose about 1/2" of draw length. There are other benefits but they escape me right now.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I use a string loop......I have nothing but good say...I know of no negative points..
They' re like a Timex..." They take a licking and keep on ticking"

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I just put a string loop on my Stone Mountain Daqota PreStreched String 2 nights ago and so far I have nothing but good things to say about it.I do see an increase in acuracy, less nock pinch and less string torque.It was pretty easy to learn to tie one on myself. So far so good.;)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I was slow to move to a loop, but I will say that I will not shoot without one now! It is just more forgiving, easier on your serving, and just makes life better. Well, maybe it doesn' t make life better, but it sure makes your bow shoot better with less wear and tear on your serving.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Surprised no one has mentioned peep alignment yet.
Evidently not all strings (just the ones on my last 4 bows) can accomplish this. But I have had great luck with using the string loop to align my peep sight to come to the eye perfectly, shot after shot. This allows you to loose the rubber tubing and go to a peep that doesn' t have a 3rd strand in the way to look around.

I have also noticed very little as far as loss in draw length. I install my loops, shoot the bow a couple dozen times, and then reshorten the loop to just allow the jaws of the release to fit behind the arrows knock. You can also ajust your release to a shorter arm to make up for the difference.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

After being a long time " shooting off the string" proponent (without any ill effects I might add) I was finally talked into a string loop. Not an ordinary string loop setup either mind you but one set up below the nock of the arrow. Seems to work well enough...I have no complaints. :)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

PAbowhunter -

just a question of curiousity. why would you put your string loop below your arrow nocking point?

I have also used a string loop for years now and only can say good things about them. i would never shoot with out one.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Supposedly, the low loop helps compensate for the less than perfect nock travel effects (in terms of forgiveness) of traditional single cam bows. Truthfully, I have noticed a slight increase in accuracy with this setup so there may be something to it. There were/are some other variables involved in my case but I am not willing to switch back just yet. ;)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

PA, your not using a dropaway with that are you.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

This past hunting season I swithed to a string loop and really like it. Increased accuracy and consistancy. Nothing but positives to say about a loop.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

PA,

Thats very interesting, I have seen the loop below before. I was under the impression that this system would increase downward nock travel on Single cams. In the same manner attaching to the string below the nock does.

I don' t dispute the fact that it is working well for you. Or that it may even be a better way to do it.

But technically speaking....:)...can you elaborate on how it may be better than the standard loop?

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I also found that I didnt lose any draw length because I have always shot with a very bent elbow on my bow arm . I can still anchor in the same place by just straigtning the bow arm some. Just another benifit of shooting a bent elbow for me.;)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Fletchhead,

No, I am using a regular GKF Golden Premier with low loop setup.

Rack attack,

Here is a copy/paste of the explanation that was given to me....

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I' ve used the loop for years now, with excellent results, and I too won' t shoot without them now. I shoot mine with a tied-in nockset above and below the arrow nock, then attach the loop over and below them. This way if you ever pull through a loop you can carry a few extras in your quiver and have it back up and running in less than a minute if you know how to tie them without affecting tuning at all. This can really save your bacon if in the middle of a fly-in hunt or out in the middle of a tournament.

I have played with them below, and one over and one below with no nockset, and one nokset above, etc, and find that with the two tied-in noksets you eliminate any " cinching" of the arrow that can cause erratic flight, and pulling from the direct centerline of the arrow makes tuning easier on most setups, and I cannot really agree with the quoted statement above to be honest as each setup is different as far as nock travel is concerned. Whatever floats your boat on this, but if you run two under with no nokset you can have varying degrees of pressure against the bottom of the arrow when switching loops,(not to mention you are always pulling " up" , creating more pressure) and this can cause differentials. If running the " two under" I always recommend a nockset above them also. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I' m with PW12 on this one. Having seen and documented the varying forms of nock travel over the years, and I mean VARYING, I can' t see how putting the loop under the arrow could really be advantageous. I' ve really only seen this procedure done by some tournament archers and those who emulate them. There are probably many others, but I haven' t seen them.

While putting two tied-in nocks above and below the arrow is good, we do it differently. We make sure we have extra large ' beads' at each end of the loop. When tightening the loop we use about 100+ pounds of pressure while controlling the width of the loop to fit the arrow' s nock. With this method, we keep the loop exceptionally tight so that it will not move or break loose. The only problem you may have with any loop is the serving moving and opening up the loop; but, this can happen with other forms of arrow captivation as well.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

This is pretty much the same method that is used down at the local shop as well. The setup I mentioned above is something I have been experimenting with over the last month or so with relatively favorable results.

....and that is exactly where this quote came from.

Now that is a good idea. I try to keep my hunting setups as simple and as rugged as possible. Being able to replace or repair items in the field is essential to the way I view my setup. Thank you for the tip.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Petersons Bowhuntingran an article about different nocking systems and their benefits or lack thereoff in the October issue of last year. It pretty well stated the obvious but backs up what Len and Pin are talking about and also what Pa,s talking about , and why sometimes a slight down pressure is needed or adventageous.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Frank-

You are certainly welcome! ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I forgot to mention something else beneficial that I found about the " low loop" . Since the loop itself is not directly behind the arrow then it does not have to be as long to compensate for the room that the nock takes up on the string in front of it. This then helps in that you do not have to adjust your anchor points, or draw length in some cases, to the extent that you would with a " normal" loop.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Frank:

We always put the loops on to the point where the release will almost touch the nock. Then we tell the customer to expect some stretch and to bring it back to us if it does stretch for a free adjustment. Keeping the loop as short as possible limits the ' other' adjustments. I' ve seen some loops as long as 2" when they really should be about 1/2" .

I' m also a strong believer of shortening the release rather than shortening the draw length. They' re now making ' loop' releases which have the trigger repositioned for the loop differential and they work very well at allowing an archer to maintain his/her present draw length while using a standard loop.

Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock. If you put enough pressure on the loop installation, it should ' dig' into the groves of the serving and will not move. Monofilament serving is the worst to deal with when installing a loop.

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RE: Off the string or loop
 

Len,

Thanks for the tips. I have been using much the same procedure as you described in your first paragraph and have found much the same things recently in regard to some of the excessively long loops found on some folks' bows. I have also contemplated trying a shorter or more adjustable release but have not had a chance to as of yet.

Have you tried any of the " slip on" loops yet?

Are you referring to brass nocksets or tied-on ones?

This is generally what I have found as well. The only problem I run into then is when the string creeps and I have to reinstall the loop to compensate for it.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

archerman: While your system works, I would prefer the string loop. With such a short ATA and the hard leverage of a drop-away rest, you could be getting some torsional disturbance on the arrow at full draw.

Frank: The shorter releases, and especially the ' hook' style are really the trick. With the hook, I can load my release with my eyes closed. This really helps when you have you eyes on the animal and can' t afford to look down to put your release on the loop.

I haven' t tried any of the ' slip on' loops because I can' t really see where they would give me the benefit of controlling the peep due to not being secured well enough to the serving. Do you have any positive input in this matter?

Quote:

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Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock.

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What I' m referring to is the arrow nock. When you use a slightly larger one, this keeps the ' pinch down when installing your regular arrow nock. The way we tighten the loop, there is always a tendency for the loop knots to try to squeeze together.

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This is generally what I have found as well. The only problem I run into then is when the string creeps and I have to reinstall the loop to compensate for it.

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The string creep (or stretch) is something that you have to contend with no matter what style of nock/loop you use. It is serving creep that will drive you crazy. I just had to reserve a brand new WC string for the customer because the serving slipped up in just a dozen shots. I called WC and got VERY LITTLE satisfaction. Needless to say, George Bowman (www.bowmancustomstrings.com) got a call very quickly.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Len,

Are you feeling colorful today? :) I have been kicking around the idea of trying the Scott Lil Goose though Jeff has suggested that I try one of the Carter models. I have little experience with them though I am guessing this is the type of release that you are referring to.

No, I have not tried the slip-on loop either. I have not had any of the loops I tied slip or come undone as of yet so I really do not see any advantage to the slip-on version. Plus, the slip-on version is more difficult to initially install as the bow must be put in a press.

Thanks for the nock tip. I will try that one out on the next bow when I install the loop.

True, but I have found it somewhat easier to uninstall and reinstall a brass nockset in comparison to a string loop provided the string loop is cinched extremely tight.

I would take that to mean that you have had better luck with George Bowman' s servings?

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Frank,
The Lil' Goose will still put the position of the trigger too far back in relation to the jaw itself.........the " True" loop style releases you should be looking at are ones like the Scott " Rhino" , Carter " One Shot" , or Tru-Ball " Short-N-Sweet" .
These styles that put the trigger as close as possible to the point of contact with the loop is what negates the change in anchor usually associated with a transition from " Off the string" to a loop style.

Here' s a copy of a post from Eders I made to Vic (500fps) describing the style of loop I use..........This change in style vs what I normally use came from " JeffB" after he attended a seminar in NY with some top shelf archers with their careers riding on stuff like this. Thanks Jeff for taking me out of " Redneckville" .(see below):)

First I will say that I have always shot a normal loop(what turns out the pros like Dave Cousins call a " Redneck Loop" )
Well if you just tie yourself a " Redneck Loop" and leave the normal bit of air between the 2 simple knots so that they aren' t putting any pressure on the nock sandwiched between....you think that you are OK. You ARE OK....but only OK. If you can do it, with a normal " Redneck Loop" draw your bow with a release and arrow and at full draw pull the string away from your face and look at the location of your release and the direction of pull.
You will see that the release is completely ABOVE the line of your arrow nock and that you are pulling on an " incline" .

What you want to do is this........
Locate your upper nock point that your arrow nock will rest against.......at this point tie in a nock set with serving about 1/8" in total length. Build it up enough and tight enough that it provides a good solid nock set.
Next fit an arrow nock you plan on shooting on the string. Make a mark about 1/16th of an inch BELOW the bottom edge of your arrow nock. This will provide a bit of " AIR" between the 2 nock sets.....this is important so that you have no pressure at all on the nock itself from below.

Now tie in another nock set starting at that lower mark and extend it TWICE as long as the first nock set....meaning build it up at a length of about 1/4" . That is the trick to this style........without the bottom set being DOUBLE the length of the top you will still be pulling above the line of the arrow.

Finally simply tie in a string loop AROUND these 2 nock sets(I like the knots to alternate or face opposite directions).....keep the loop very shallow to start because it will need to set. You want only about 1/8 -1/4" of gap between the finished loop and your arrow' s nock..........just enough to get your release in comfortably.

Now repeat that first excercise (again if you can) of drawing your bow with a release and arrow and look at the location of the release and the direction of pull...........you' ll see that BOTH are directly in line with the arrow.

Here' s a pic of my personal loop set-up on my 3D bow (Pro40 Dually)


(The 2 tied in sets are different colors just because I retied the bottom one a few days ago to give it a bit more length vs the original...same material different color that' s all)
You can actually see the ' Set" in the loop material made by the release position at full draw. You can also see the bit of " Air" between the nock and bottom nock set.

This style should help considerably to remove any " Release induced" nock travel problems.........it will promote much better nock travel in any bow, but especially Dual Cams where you don' t want to do anything to screw up what should be level nock travel in a properly timed set up.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

That' s why I like coming to this site. Nowhere else can a group of guys turn a silly little piece of string into something so technical.:)
Here I thought I had string loops all figured out.
My bows are definately set up with " redneck loops"
Next time I' m shooting I' ll be wondering if I need to get all fancy with my loops.
I' ll look at my release and check that angle thing out.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Frank:

Yes, I guess I' m feeling colorful today! :D

The releases Matt mentioned are some about which I was talking. Another is the Tru-Fire Black Talon; although this one needs a little trigger adjustment - IMPO.

The slip-on string loop is too much of a pain to install; especially if you already have elements on the string. Couple that with not controlling the peep and you' ve got something that is probably cost prohibitive and ineffective.

A way to change the loop quickly and effectively is through usage of a tool. We use a very sharp punch that we found at a flea market. I think they' re used for leather working. Put the point into a crease in the knot and twist. The loop will loosen no matter how tight it may be.

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I just had to reserve a brand new WC string for the customer because the serving slipped up in just a dozen shots. I called WC and got VERY LITTLE satisfaction. Needless to say, George Bowman (www.bowmancustomstrings.com) got a call very quickly.

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Yes, I found George must easier to deal with and found that his strings are very good quality. I did also have a problem with the center servings not being long enough to facilitate a standard kisser button. A comment to George about the problem and it was fixed.

The WC strings are good; but, as a Dealer, I have to stand up for my customers and get proper action on problems. I still purchase from WC but I' m now aware of how I have to address my needs.

Matt:

The Pro' s calling it a " Redneck Loop" is probably very offensive to 80% of the hunting archers. I' m sorry to see that phrase used by them.

Anyhow, what you describe is true but, IMPO, not worth the trouble unless you' re going for the very center of a ' Vegas' target face. Unless many tie their loops very different from my techs, which I doubt, the difference from the centerline of the arrow to the centerline of the release is minuscule in the scope of things. Also, from my work on actual nock travel of various bows, the amount of change incorporated by this ' elitist' loop will have a minuscule affect on nock travel.

A much quicker way to achieve the same results would be to use a small string nokset below the arrow with the stated clearances.

I agree but respectfully take issue.;)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I am with Len on that!;) If the Pros are publically calling them " Redneck loops" , and " dissing" every other archer on the planet except those that shoot " their" style of loop, then they aren' t very " Professional" to anyone but themselves, IMHO.

However--

I can see Dave calling it that in fun with friends tho, as he likes to bust chops as much as the next guy. Seeing as he lives in the hills of Maine, " Redneck" is calling the kettle black some, isn' t it? He puts his pants on the same as everyone else when he gets up in the morning too, no matter how many titles he has won. I think Dave is a great guy, and feel that he may have just been " busting" in good fun with no malice meant towards anyone. ;)

Yep, I also firmly believe that that little " extra" is of little consequence. I have run my loops from one end of the spectrum to the other in the quest for the " perfect one, and can say that you DO have it right IMO with the double tied-in noksets above and below with a slight air space, but an extra 1/8" of material under the arrow nock only serves to bring the release down MAYBE half of that, and if you can visibly notice the difference in arrow flight and nock travel from MAYBE 1/32-1/16" of movement in release position, then you' re a much better man than I am. The only time you can readily notice change in flight and nock travel is when you change the position to completely under the arrow, or if you are " cinching the arrow" (varying flight, same nock travel) with a loop when tied over and above the arrow.

Other than that, shoot ' em the way you like ' em, there are no " miracle" loops as long as you have sufficient clearance and no interferrence from pressure.

I also agree about the slip-on loops. P.I.T.A. IMO. You have to yank the string to get them on, and who wants to do that? Tie-ons are much simpler. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Thanks for the tips Matt, Len, Kevin. I am going to give each of your suggestions a whirl and see which works best for my setup and personal shooting style.

Dave,

" Ain' t" that the truth. :)

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Len,Kevin,
From the description of Jeff' s conversations with Dave Cousins I think its safe to say that it was meant " in fun" apparently Dave is a shooter who is shall we say " A Cookie Cruncher" and I doubt he meant anything offensive by it. He had Jeff laughing the entire time. So Kevin I think your instincts are probably right on that front.
In any event I find it hard to dismiss this little bit of insight.........if we strive for the utmost in accuracy that our set-ups can give us ,our margin for error decreases. I think any animal we shoot at deserves our best attempt at " Vegas Spot Accuracy" (no offense intended by that comment Len)
If it helps tuning issues , broadhead / arrow flight , nock travel or whathaveyou even a little bit, IMO its worth the extra couple of minutes to set it up.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I' m another who uses tied-in nock sets, above and below the nock. My loop is a " catfish" loop that is tied above and below the nock sets. The " catfish" loop is not practical for a pro shop to tie, because of the time involved tying one, but I love the adjustability and how easy it is to make one the exact length and thickness you want. The catfish loop isn' t as good at controlling a peep because it' s not as easy to tie one tight enough to control the string, but I don' t use a peep, so it' s not a concern for me. On the other hand, since it' s not as tight on the string, it moves easily up or down the string when moving a nock set.


Great thread everyone!

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Matt, thanks for posting that idea and pic. I' ve never seen it done like that. I was planning on trying the loop under setup like Frank also, but then you are introducing arrow pinch again. It looks like your setup is the best of both worlds. What I don' t understand is why it pulls at an incline, and you' re right... it does. Not completely above the arrow on mine, but still high. At first I thought it was because I didn' t have enough weight on the front so I put on my 32" stab. It didn' t make any difference. I' m going to give your loop a try.

Now, can anyone explain why it is pulling upwards when it seems like it should be pulling even?

RE: Off the string or loop
 

I am probably wrong but could it be because the nocking point really is not in the true center of the bowstring?

Dacotah,

There still is not any string pinch as I use a slight gap between the bottom of the arrow nock and the top of knot of string loop.

RE: Off the string or loop
 

Matt-

Yes, I firmly understand the point you are trying to make, but you must ask yourself also if miniscule things like this are actually worth the extra effort in " real-life" .... I am one that goes to great lengths to make sure my setup is " dead-nuts" -- you all have been witness to many of my long-winded techniques and ramblings!:D However, being a tech I also know (for the most part) the point to where things will make a distinct and visible difference, and when they won' t. Of course we all strive for perfection, and checking the details is definately a great thing, but much like how we sometimes get " all caught up" with the newest " fads" that may or may not turn out be all that we wished them to be, sometimes we are basically doing things for nothing more than keeping " the gears turning" and ourselves occupied. I firmly believe this to be one of those instances with the elongated under nokset.

One good thing is that it will never hurt you I don' t believe, but I also don' t feel it will be of significant benefit, either. JMHO. Whatever floats your boat, and whatever you feel is of extra benefit to you and your shooting is all that matters. As long as you are having fun, that' s all that matters!;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

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