arrow straightness
03-20-2009, 10:48 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Henderson, KY
Posts: 1,760
RE: arrow straightness
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88
Couldn't agree with you more Jeff.
One thing I see a lot of, especially the shops around me is the improper building of arrows to begin with. This is the reason I build all of my shafts myself. I see to many guys just cutting a shaft at one endand gluing an insert in, without taking time to properly align the components or squaring the end of the shaft. That process right there, IMO, is the single most important "flaw" in most shops.
I think that most of the better grade carbons out there are more than capable to shooting a fixed head well, as long you get the other steps when building them done right. A misaligned insert is probably the biggest culprit to broadhead/point wobble. Same thing for the nocks.
Take the time to cut both ends of the shaft, square them with an ASD or other means and you'll be way further ahead. I read somewhere that a pro shooter for Gold Tip once stated that you can get .001 straightness or close to it, out of an XT shaft by cutting equally from both ends.
Couldn't agree with you more Jeff.
One thing I see a lot of, especially the shops around me is the improper building of arrows to begin with. This is the reason I build all of my shafts myself. I see to many guys just cutting a shaft at one endand gluing an insert in, without taking time to properly align the components or squaring the end of the shaft. That process right there, IMO, is the single most important "flaw" in most shops.
I think that most of the better grade carbons out there are more than capable to shooting a fixed head well, as long you get the other steps when building them done right. A misaligned insert is probably the biggest culprit to broadhead/point wobble. Same thing for the nocks.
Take the time to cut both ends of the shaft, square them with an ASD or other means and you'll be way further ahead. I read somewhere that a pro shooter for Gold Tip once stated that you can get .001 straightness or close to it, out of an XT shaft by cutting equally from both ends.
You are correct! Ive personally talked to the president of a certain arrow company and he actually told me that all it takes to make one of their .005 arrows a .001 is to cut about 1/2" off of the nock end of the arrow. He told me that b/c i was with a staff shooter then and i was just kinda listening in[:-] Its no real secret none the less b/c if you actually check for straightness you would know that anyway. he said that applies for most arrows b/c of the runout on the ends is where you get the lack of straightness.
Good rant...
Derek
03-20-2009, 11:08 AM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: arrow straightness
ORIGINAL: drockw
You are correct! Ive personally talked to the president of a certain arrow company and he actually told me that all it takes to make one of their .005 arrows a .001 is to cut about 1/2" off of the nock end of the arrow. He told me that b/c i was with a staff shooter then and i was just kinda listening in[:-] Its no real secret none the less b/c if you actually check for straightness you would know that anyway. he said that applies for most arrows b/c of the runout on the ends is where you get the lack of straightness.
Good rant...
Derek
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88
Couldn't agree with you more Jeff.
One thing I see a lot of, especially the shops around me is the improper building of arrows to begin with. This is the reason I build all of my shafts myself. I see to many guys just cutting a shaft at one endand gluing an insert in, without taking time to properly align the components or squaring the end of the shaft. That process right there, IMO, is the single most important "flaw" in most shops.
I think that most of the better grade carbons out there are more than capable to shooting a fixed head well, as long you get the other steps when building them done right. A misaligned insert is probably the biggest culprit to broadhead/point wobble. Same thing for the nocks.
Take the time to cut both ends of the shaft, square them with an ASD or other means and you'll be way further ahead. I read somewhere that a pro shooter for Gold Tip once stated that you can get .001 straightness or close to it, out of an XT shaft by cutting equally from both ends.
Couldn't agree with you more Jeff.
One thing I see a lot of, especially the shops around me is the improper building of arrows to begin with. This is the reason I build all of my shafts myself. I see to many guys just cutting a shaft at one endand gluing an insert in, without taking time to properly align the components or squaring the end of the shaft. That process right there, IMO, is the single most important "flaw" in most shops.
I think that most of the better grade carbons out there are more than capable to shooting a fixed head well, as long you get the other steps when building them done right. A misaligned insert is probably the biggest culprit to broadhead/point wobble. Same thing for the nocks.
Take the time to cut both ends of the shaft, square them with an ASD or other means and you'll be way further ahead. I read somewhere that a pro shooter for Gold Tip once stated that you can get .001 straightness or close to it, out of an XT shaft by cutting equally from both ends.
You are correct! Ive personally talked to the president of a certain arrow company and he actually told me that all it takes to make one of their .005 arrows a .001 is to cut about 1/2" off of the nock end of the arrow. He told me that b/c i was with a staff shooter then and i was just kinda listening in[:-] Its no real secret none the less b/c if you actually check for straightness you would know that anyway. he said that applies for most arrows b/c of the runout on the ends is where you get the lack of straightness.
Good rant...
Derek
03-20-2009, 11:54 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Henderson, KY
Posts: 1,760
RE: arrow straightness
Very true about the variations in wrapping. I kinda forgot about that. Im not sure either why they do them like they do considering most of the arrows of the same kind are built to the same spec, just a different straightness. Probably just takes more time/money to make them straighter.
Derek
Derek
03-20-2009, 01:32 PM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: arrow straightness
ORIGINAL: JeffB
We've discussed arrow straightness/spine back and forth forever here. I know. I'm feeling ranty.Deal.
Would any of you shoot an Aluminum arrow that wobbled on either end? I've seen a million guys see an Alum arrow with wobble and either head for the straightener or the arrow is in the trash within 30 seconds. "It's bent!"
So why in god's name would you pay $80 - $130 for a dozen carbon arrows and roughly a third (or more!) of them are essentially "bent"? You cannot straighten a carbon arrow.
I'm not talking about advertised straightness (which can be very different! and manufacturers know this- and thus why they get away with this crap)
I'm talking about wobbly nocks and wobbly broadheads.
I would NEVER EVER shoot a fixed blade head at modern arrow speeds on an alum arrow that was bent at the tip or nock. And I'm not going to do it on a carbon arrow that has the same issue.
I had this convo with my buddy back home last week or so, and a post on AT reminded me of it. He has a few of his $130 a dozen (fletched, sky high shop prices) Beman camo ST Axis type arrows that wobble. He has about 4 or 5 that he won't hunt with at all cos the broadheads are wobbly and don't group well/with the rest past 20 yards. So he went out and bought another half dozen hoping to get some straighter ones.
He was hesitant to spend more money on straighter shafts from CX, or Easton (A/C tech).. Of course I asked him- "why would you pay $200 dollars for what amounted to a dozen of good to decent ST type shafts from Beman, and have a problem spending $160 on a dozen A/C/Cs which are of the highest quality?"
Silence.
I can understand being on a budget. Really, I do. But you are better off spending less money on a bow, or fancy camo, or Scent Lok or whatever than spending less money on quality ammo (and string/cables for that matter).
We've discussed arrow straightness/spine back and forth forever here. I know. I'm feeling ranty.Deal.
Would any of you shoot an Aluminum arrow that wobbled on either end? I've seen a million guys see an Alum arrow with wobble and either head for the straightener or the arrow is in the trash within 30 seconds. "It's bent!"
So why in god's name would you pay $80 - $130 for a dozen carbon arrows and roughly a third (or more!) of them are essentially "bent"? You cannot straighten a carbon arrow.
I'm not talking about advertised straightness (which can be very different! and manufacturers know this- and thus why they get away with this crap)
I'm talking about wobbly nocks and wobbly broadheads.
I would NEVER EVER shoot a fixed blade head at modern arrow speeds on an alum arrow that was bent at the tip or nock. And I'm not going to do it on a carbon arrow that has the same issue.
I had this convo with my buddy back home last week or so, and a post on AT reminded me of it. He has a few of his $130 a dozen (fletched, sky high shop prices) Beman camo ST Axis type arrows that wobble. He has about 4 or 5 that he won't hunt with at all cos the broadheads are wobbly and don't group well/with the rest past 20 yards. So he went out and bought another half dozen hoping to get some straighter ones.
He was hesitant to spend more money on straighter shafts from CX, or Easton (A/C tech).. Of course I asked him- "why would you pay $200 dollars for what amounted to a dozen of good to decent ST type shafts from Beman, and have a problem spending $160 on a dozen A/C/Cs which are of the highest quality?"
Silence.
I can understand being on a budget. Really, I do. But you are better off spending less money on a bow, or fancy camo, or Scent Lok or whatever than spending less money on quality ammo (and string/cables for that matter).
I have said this for years,if on a budget,spend less on the bow and more on the arrows.After all,that is the buisness end of things.
AND I agree,the components,front and back are what determines just how well the arrow will fly.
03-20-2009, 04:50 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: arrow straightness
ORIGINAL: bigcountry
I have heard this from gold tip, but it never made much sense to me. When they make these, they are making in one big line, and cutting the arrow shaft. I don't know if its a cost saving method because the wrapping isn't cured to the glue or what. I have seen it to be mildly true, and have followed this advise, and got half and half results. Meaning, I see half the arrows getting to acceptable straightness. I have yet to see any of these arrows .001" throughout however. it would be hard for a home hobbyist to measure because the variations with the wrapping alone.
I have heard this from gold tip, but it never made much sense to me. When they make these, they are making in one big line, and cutting the arrow shaft. I don't know if its a cost saving method because the wrapping isn't cured to the glue or what. I have seen it to be mildly true, and have followed this advise, and got half and half results. Meaning, I see half the arrows getting to acceptable straightness. I have yet to see any of these arrows .001" throughout however. it would be hard for a home hobbyist to measure because the variations with the wrapping alone.
03-21-2009, 03:03 PM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: arrow straightness
I have to agree with what you are saying, JB. Of course we have talked about this many times before.
I made a spine meter much like the one that Big Country has posted. Slight differences, but basically the same thing. It is good enough to learn about different arrows. You can measure spine around the shaft and differences between arrows in a dozen. I would say that nothing I've tested is in the league with ACCs, but Carbon Tech and Victory aren't bad. Some brands that I won't mention have been bad enough that I will not likely ever buy arrows from them again. I also have a simple arrow spinner that shows wobble, but doesn't really measure how much the arrow is out. Some times only one end wobbles and you can cut that out.
As far as how to best spend your archery money, I know that most of my cheap bows and Frankensteins have shot plenty well enough with good arrows. Heck, even a brand new Alphamax won't shoot the way you want it to with bad arrows. LOL
I made a spine meter much like the one that Big Country has posted. Slight differences, but basically the same thing. It is good enough to learn about different arrows. You can measure spine around the shaft and differences between arrows in a dozen. I would say that nothing I've tested is in the league with ACCs, but Carbon Tech and Victory aren't bad. Some brands that I won't mention have been bad enough that I will not likely ever buy arrows from them again. I also have a simple arrow spinner that shows wobble, but doesn't really measure how much the arrow is out. Some times only one end wobbles and you can cut that out.
As far as how to best spend your archery money, I know that most of my cheap bows and Frankensteins have shot plenty well enough with good arrows. Heck, even a brand new Alphamax won't shoot the way you want it to with bad arrows. LOL
03-21-2009, 09:17 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 2,531
RE: arrow straightness
Could just be me, but I think it's "much ado...." Certainly there's a difference between a .006 and .003, but in the overall realm, I'm not sure that most general archers are ever going to see much difference between a .003 and .002 or .0015 straightness arrow. The arrows I shoot I have cut at Cabela's when I order them, and they will generall come ready to shoot, all I do is insert them, and fletch 'em up as I choose, and they're usually good to go. I've tubed quite a few of them, and I think if you're "tubing" arrows then the spine and straightness must be pretty consistent. Ithink sometimes guys will blame arrows, bows, etc for problems that are really more related to the guy shooting or working on the bow. Case in point, I've owned 4 bows that I've shot RH's with in the last 4-5 yrs.
03-22-2009, 03:25 AM
#18
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 305
RE: arrow straightness
Guess I'm the black sheep on this one. Two seasons ago I used expensive arrows and bh. Filled all four of my tags. Last season I used arrows and bh that cost just about half. Filled all four of my tags. None of which were junk or the lowest quality. The few places where I have to hunt is thick. 20 yards would be a long shot with 12 yards and less being my average. It takes a little more work to get the lesser priced arrows to spin true but I get er done. If they shoot true they shoot true. I still keep better quality arrowsfor if and when I secure another hunting spot where shots over 30 yards would be possible.
03-22-2009, 09:44 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: arrow straightness
The way they shoot with open blade broadheads is basically what I am referring to. The difference is not between .006 or .001 in advertised straightness. It is between which of the dozen is as straight as it's claimed to be and which ones are out by much more. I've shot arrows where maybe 5 of the dozen would really group right with broadheads (out to 40 yards) and for some reason that bothered me a bit. The Carbon Techs I shoot now are all good with broadheads, and they are only advertised at .005.
03-22-2009, 10:20 AM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 2,531
RE: arrow straightness
ORIGINAL: JOE PA
The way they shoot with open blade broadheads is basically what I am referring to. The difference is not between .006 or .001 in advertised straightness. It is between which of the dozen is as straight as it's claimed to be and which ones are out by much more. I've shot arrows where maybe 5 of the dozen would really group right with broadheads (out to 40 yards) and for some reason that bothered me a bit. The Carbon Techs I shoot now are all good with broadheads, and they are only advertised at .005.
The way they shoot with open blade broadheads is basically what I am referring to. The difference is not between .006 or .001 in advertised straightness. It is between which of the dozen is as straight as it's claimed to be and which ones are out by much more. I've shot arrows where maybe 5 of the dozen would really group right with broadheads (out to 40 yards) and for some reason that bothered me a bit. The Carbon Techs I shoot now are all good with broadheads, and they are only advertised at .005.
The arrows in my signature are the MOST consistent I've shot, not Gold Tip XT (the good ones, not the .006's), PSE Carbon Force Radial Weave (also good ones), nor the Beman or Carbon Expresses I've shot have been as consistent, and all were cut appropriately by the same shop.
But I've never had any single dozen arrows that I could only get 5 of the 12 to shoot well. I've had a couple that 2 or 3 had issues, but never anything that extreme. Part of the reason I keep going back to the arrows I use is that awesome consistency, again, several have gotten the RH treatment, including the one in my avatar, and at $52/dozen raw, they're the best arrow that my frugal $$$$ can buy!!!!