Nock High Tear
 

Folks, I'm looking for some advice after spending hours fiddling at papertuning. I've just bought and fitted a NAP Quiktune 3000, and despite changing nock height (up and down to extremes) and spring tension (solid to &quot;floppy&quot;) I'm left with an upright tear of about 3 inches with bare shafts. Fleching &quot;fixes&quot; this but I know what I see when the fleching is off. I just unhappy with the result! My setup is a 2001 BK2, 65lb draw, 28&quot; draw length (string loop), 27,5&quot; Beman ICSH 400 with 100grain tips. Fletching is 3 x 4&quot; feathers. I tried my Carbon Express Terminator CamoHunters with a similar effect, only the tear was now 4 inches long!!! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>. Centreshot appears fine. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks, Mark.
PS&gt; My previous rest was a Quiktune 1000 and I had no problems.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

try adjusting the sping tension so that it takes less force to push the rest down. the rest may be so rigid due to the spring tension that the arrow isn't able to flex the way it should.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

mlj64,
Roll the paper up into a big ball, and use any wood from the paper tuner to build a fire and roast some marshmellows!! Paper tuning, in my opinion, is a waste of time. The best way to tune your bow is to shoot it. There are some base measurements that need to be &quot;close.&quot; You can then fine tune your bow by group tuning and/or supertuning. Group tune your arrows at different distances and keep accurate records in regards to accuracy. This will do more to tell you how your bow is performing than shooting your arrows through the &quot;funnies section.&quot; I get a good laugh out of guys who stand in front of a piece of paper as if it is the great archery oracle. Dont' waste your time, PLEASE! --Ike

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Ike, I agree to a point, but a 3&quot; tear is an awful lot, especially with a bare shaft. Sure doesn't sound like his bow is launching arrows as efficiently as it should. I had a &quot;pro&quot; paper tune my bow at 20 yards. Nice bullet hole. I stepped up to 6 feet and got a gawd awful tear. He told me you can't tune that close, you gotta give the arrow time to stabilize.... I went home, set my bow up properly, got an easy bullet hole at 6' and good groups at various yardages, and picked up over 20 fps from where he had it &quot;tuned&quot; at... Something sure sounds wrong with mlj64's new rest, as apparently it is the only new variable added since he was getting good results.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

3&quot; tears are unacceptable with any setup, and I have to disagree that papertuning is a waste of time. To the contrary, it is a great &quot;starting point&quot; in the tuning process. One cannot shoot for beans with a 3&quot; tear, and you'll drive yourself nutty trying to get it out simply by group tuning. One needs to start somewhere, and throwing a bullet hole or 1/4&quot; tail-high left tear normally is a great place to start.

Now to the problem. If you are throwing correctly spined arrows with a straight-up tear and spring tension and nock height doesn't do squat, you may need to re-time your bow. I find it hard to believe that this rest alone will produce this amount of trouble if you had no problems with your other one. Try your old one just for the heck of it, and see if you can still get good results, could be you were geting a false read. Luckily you have a twin cam, and re-timing if needed can be done quite easily. If you find you do have problems also with your old rest, put your spring tension to middle of the road, and re-time your bow.Then set your nock height approx 1/8&quot; above centerline, and then try it again. You may need to advance one cam slightly more than the other depending upon tear and release style and hookup. You can also try adding a pound or two to one limb or another, this may bring it in without the re-time, however I feel that a re-time would probably be a good thing in this case if the spring tension doesn't do it for you and the results are the same with your old rest if not, go back to your old rest!! Good luck, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/23/2002 16:07:26

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Thanks for the replies. To be fair to the rest, I have made the assumption that nothing went out of tune over the past 3-4 weeks. The groups at 18 meptres never really opened up but, as I mentioned in my first post, the fletching does a remarkable amount of correcting. I'll have a peek at the cam timing this evening. Thanks, Mark.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

A little followup. On checking the timing, it looked perfect; the cams broke over synchronously and evenly. Nevertheless, after much &quot;fiddling&quot;, I settled for 1/2 turn to the lower cable. The tear lessened to about 10mm. I'll continue to ponder on this because I can feel that momentary hesitation since the cams are out of time. Adjusting limb bolts made no difference. Tiller is even. My groups (with fletch) at 18m are acceptable - arrows touch. Thanks again for your insights.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

The arrows are most likely a little overspined and if fletching cures the problem and they group well then I would just shoot and forget the paper.A string loop will allow you to use a slightly lighter spined arrow and with no fletching that may be the only problem.

I know the ICS chart says they are correct but you would be amazed at how many charts play to the stiff side just for a little margin of error to the stiff side is better than to the light side.


I disagree that an arrow can't be tuned close.If the spine is dead on it will tune at 6' as well as 20',I have done it with the help of Archers Advantage.I will say that my 3d arrow will not and as long as they group,I could care less.

I have a friend that shoots the semi pro class and he shoots arrows that are so stiff that they will tear that bad or worse with fletching,he still finished in the top 10 in points last year in the ASA.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Folks, I'm looking for some advice after spending hours fiddling at papertuning. I've just bought and fitted a NAP Quiktune 3000, and despite changing nock height (up and down to extremes) and spring tension (solid to &quot;floppy&quot;) I'm left with an upright tear of about 3 inches with bare shafts. Fleching &quot;fixes&quot; this but I know what I see when the fleching is off. I just unhappy with the result! My setup is a 2001 BK2, 65lb draw, 28&quot; draw length (string loop), 27,5&quot; Beman ICSH 400 with 100grain tips. Fletching is 3 x 4&quot; feathers. I tried my Carbon Express Terminator CamoHunters with a similar effect, only the tear was now 4 inches long!!! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>. Centreshot appears fine. Any advice is welcomed. Thanks, Mark.
PS&gt; My previous rest was a Quiktune 1000 and I had no problems.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote><font color=red></font id=red><font color=yellow></font id=yellow> <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

RE: Nock High Tear
 

TFox-

Just think, maybe if he had correctly spined and tuned arrows he could've been in the top 5, or even 3! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>Nothing beats a well-tuned machine, my friend! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Nock High Tear
 

For the still un-educated on the subject. When paper tuning, how far from the paper should you be when shooting? Also should you paper tune with slick arrows or fletchings on?

thanks

Cargo

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Cargo, I usually do it starting from 5-6' then back up to different distances to make sure I'm not just getting lucky at the shorter distance and getting a favorable tear based on arrow paradox. I don't bare shaft tune unless I am having problems achieving the tear I'm after. Bare shaft tuning will rule out any fletching contact issues that may be present and affecting the tear...

RE: Nock High Tear
 

nock high tear,
two things i would do. 1) check to see if your fletching is hitting anywhere on the rest. 2)why change a good thing? the quick tune 1000 is a good rest, i use one myself and have had no problems with it at all. the forks should sit at about a 45 degree angle to the arrow.
good luck dont give up.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Redandgold, the tears were on bare shaft tuning. With fletching, the (4&quot; featehers) there is no noticeable tear. Reviewing the Easton Tuning guide, my bare shafts hit below the fletched ones suggesting overspine. I'll try some 125 grain points in an attempt to fix this.
Mark

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Have you done the timing check using the creep method. I heard about it from George Ryals from Martin and it works super. If you are unfamiliar with it, let me know and I will explain it the way George did.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

It's what alot of us call &quot;supertuning&quot;, and is mentioned often by myself and others here. This technique is nothing new, George mentioned it recently on another board and you'd think it was Christmastime, but some of us have been tuning like this for many years. Emery Loiselle, (one of the greatest techs I've ever met) mentions it in one of his books way back in the 70's. I've explained it here a few times before, but if you feel like typing, be my guest!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Welcome to the board! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 01/26/2002 05:57:34

RE: Nock High Tear
 

I knew George didn't invent it and I didn't feel like typing it again either unless they haven't heard of it. Thanks pinwheel!

RE: Nock High Tear
 

Pinwheel

I do agree that a well tuned machine will be more forgiving.

My friend that I speak of does go too far with overspining IMO,but the point is if it groups well and he shoots it well,then at 3d distances,it isn't as much of a factor.

mlj64,doesn't have a problem with an arrow with vanes on them ,so I really don't think he needs to worry much.

If a person isn't shooting 90 meters,I don't think that supertuning is all that necessary,you can have a well tuned bow without going to the extremes of supertuning.

RE: Nock High Tear
 

After another few frustrating hours attempting to correct that remaining tear, I decided to go right back to square one! Took the bow apart, checked the axles and cams, cables and string. Re-assembled the lot, re-installed all the components and started the tuning process from scratch. Within about an hour of flinging the 1st arrow my problems were solved. I know of that supertuning procedure but have not used it. I do not know what I &quot;fixed&quot; since there no loose &quot;nuts'n bolts&quot;; the bullet hole just appeared.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>. Oh yes, I did not change the arrows or the tips. I'm just grateful the issue is now resolved. Thanks for all the feedback and the advice.
Mark

RE: Nock High Tear
 

I'd also suspect spine. Try increasing or decreasing your tip weight, effectively changing spine. If dropping weight decreases the tear, that earth scorching BK2 has you underspined...which wouldn't suprise me all that much.