|
Dropaway conversation
My friend who runs my local shop and I were having a healthy discussion the other night regarding dropaway rests after talking about the limbdriver.
Basically there are two theories Theory 1- characterised by "instant drop" rests like the Trophy Taker, QAD series, and a multitude of others that attach to the "down" cable. The theory with these is that the launcher gets off the arrow as quickly as possible- therefore making your shot less suscpetible to shooting form errors- notably torque at the bow hand. The problem with this style rest is that a poor tune (nocking point height), borderline arrow spine, and poor nocking travel of the bow in question can really hurt you with this style rest- as there is no cushion or guidance to keep things moving along in a relatively straight line. which brings us to Theory 2- Characterised by "late drop" rests like the Limbdriver, and Whammy from Spot Hogg which attach to the bow limb or "up" cable. The idea here is that the launcher stays up for a longer period of time, offering much of the forgiveness of a "spring rest" for most of the forward travel, and then dropping away right before the fletchings pass over. The downside of course is that like a conventional rest, bow hand torque has greater potential to be a problem. My friend is a proponent of Theory #1- seeing many more guys who have bow hand torque issues roll through the shop and citing the QAD/TT style as a far more viable option for the masses.While he doesn't turn away anyone away from the LD or Whammy, he doesn't sell many except for those looking specifically for them. I did not necc take a side, but agreed that both systems have their advantages and disadvantages and that I still was not familiar enough with the Limbdriver to give any kind of "ultimate" answer as I have much more time (in years past) on the Trophy Taker style. Initially I will say that I am seeing that when I have a minor (and often major!) collapse in form at the shot, I can see my groups open up quite a bit with the limbdriver compared to the QAD I was shooting previously. But I also noticed that when I'm "on" I group a little tighter on average with the Limbdriver. Your thoughts on these theories? |
RE: Dropaway conversation
For 90% of the shooters out there, Theory Number 1 makes the most sense. Maybe even 95% of the bowhunters. There is a big difference in 3d or even field target shooting and real hunting. The problem I see with the conversation is when a target shooter meets a hunter.
Thats the reason I was such a fan of the MZE. You could make it stay up long enough, total containment, worked well. One does not need to be able to hit 2" groups at 50 yards to get the job done on deer. I am all for accuracy, but learning more and more its about what is practical. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Jeff, really there's not much to add to your two theories. I honestly feel you've hit the nail on the head.
Like you've mentioned no rest will help a shooter if the arrow is incorrectly spined, if a shotter has bad hand form (torque) and if their follow thru is absent, (holding steady). Nevertheless, just like some bows, I too feel that some rests are more forgiving, to an extent. You have already made mention of those circumstances in your thread above. Keep 'em coming Jeff. I enjoy reading your educated thoughts ;). |
RE: Dropaway conversation
bigcountry, you bring up a very good point. For the masses, most will say and notice that theory #1 is more consistant for them, especially at hunting distances.
For the guys that have good form and shoot very well, then theory #2 is perhaps the way to go. However, in most cases, traditional drop aways are still more than adequate for a hunting setup. Me, I'm on the fence. I'm a hunter first and foremost, but I also want the most accuracy I can obtain. For me, that is the LD or Whammy. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88 bigcountry, you bring up a very good point. For the masses, most will say and notice that theory #1 is more consistant for them, especially at hunting distances. For the guys that have good form and shoot very well, then theory #2 is perhaps the way to go. However, in most cases, traditional drop aways are still more than adequate for a hunting setup. Me, I'm on the fence. I'm a hunter first and foremost, but I also want the most accuracy I can obtain. For me, that is the LD or Whammy. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Not to sound like a sour apple, its always been about form IMO with any rest you shoot unless the rest is absolute junk. Although theory one may sound good I don't quite buy it. My simple and uneducated reasoning is before these dropaways became popular we all used shoot through rests or at least flipper rests. Maybe I am looking at this wrong, but I don't see any dropaway rest being more accurate than a good shoot through rest. Even with questionable form.
I do know that for me at least, I seem to tune better when I can get my dropaway to fall later rather than sooner. BG mentioned the Muzzy. I shot one for the last 2 years on my Patriot and like it. But I had a heck of a time tuning it/timing it for various reasons. No index scale, adjusting it was more trial and error than it should have been. Once I got it the best I could it presented no problems though. Its still on there. I just don't want the hassle of mounting another one and it is sort of ugly[8D]. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: JeffB My friend who runs my local shop and I were having a healthy discussion the other night regarding dropaway rests after talking about the limbdriver. Basically there are two theories Theory 1- characterised by "instant drop" rests like the Trophy Taker, QAD series, and a multitude of others that attach to the "down" cable. The theory with these is that the launcher gets off the arrow as quickly as possible- therefore making your shot less suscpetible to shooting form errors- notably torque at the bow hand. The problem with this style rest is that a poor tune (nocking point height), borderline arrow spine, and poor nocking travel of the bow in question can really hurt you with this style rest- as there is no cushion or guidance to keep things moving along in a relatively straight line. which brings us to Theory 2- Characterised by "late drop" rests like the Limbdriver, and Whammy from Spot Hogg which attach to the bow limb or "up" cable. The idea here is that the launcher stays up for a longer period of time, offering much of the forgiveness of a "spring rest" for most of the forward travel, and then dropping away right before the fletchings pass over. The downside of course is that like a conventional rest, bow hand torque has greater potential to be a problem. My friend is a proponent of Theory #1- seeing many more guys who have bow hand torque issues roll through the shop and citing the QAD/TT style as a far more viable option for the masses.While he doesn't turn away anyone away from the LD or Whammy, he doesn't sell many except for those looking specifically for them. I did not necc take a side, but agreed that both systems have their advantages and disadvantages and that I still was not familiar enough with the Limbdriver to give any kind of "ultimate" answer as I have much more time (in years past) on the Trophy Taker style. Initially I will say that I am seeing that when I have a minor (and often major!) collapse in form at the shot, I can see my groups open up quite a bit with the limbdriver compared to the QAD I was shooting previously. But I also noticed that when I'm "on" I group a little tighter on average with the Limbdriver. Your thoughts on these theories? I'm still using mine and about all my extended family members are too;) |
RE: Dropaway conversation
An easy test I did to see which theory makes sense was to shoot thru paper and bareshaft. On the test, one one set of arrows, grip the handle as hard as you can, then another set of shots, shoot in strained position where form cannot be perfect. You got to be creative. But any hunter has seen strained shots.
Then put on a rest that stays up 80% of the time like a LD. Repeat and see your results. Espeically bareshafted. See which one is more forgiving. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
All this tech. talk has gotten to me. I've tried hard to get used to my Limbdriver but it ain't happening. Everytime I pick up my bow to go out back and shoot (which is everyday) all I think about is rest timing, clearance, containment,that damn cable in my line of sight and the noise it makes as the control cable snaps back to the loaded position (kind of like popping a towel). I'm real good at killing animals but I'm not cut out to be a tech guy.:eek:Don't take this wrong I wish I was smart enough to understand all this stuff but admit that I'm not. I'm going back to the simple life and my three prong containment rest. If anyone wants to try out a Limbdriver PM me and I will send you mine. I'm serious. I'm going out back to make friends with my bow again! :D
Dan |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Thanks for the post Jeff and BC. I have been thinking along such lines as well but not to the extent you have brought out. For me, I tend to go along with theory 1. However, I have never claimed to be the best shot in all hunting situations and that's whereit's atfor me. Since I have both the QAD and the LD, now that I have read this I believe I will be doing some more testing in the near future.
Ed |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: mfd1027 All this tech. talk has gotten to me. I've tried hard to get used to my Limbdriver but it ain't happening. Everytime I pick up my bow to go out back and shoot (which is everyday) all I think about is rest timing, clearance, containment,that damn cable in my line of sight and the noise it makes as the control cable snaps back to the loaded position (kind of like popping a towel). I'm real good at killing animals but I'm not cut out to be a tech guy.:eek:Don't take this wrong I wish I was smart enough to understand all this stuff but admit that I'm not. I'm going back to the simple life and my three prong containment rest. If anyone wants to try out a Limbdriver PM me and I will send you mine. I'm serious. I'm going out back to make friends with my bow again! :D Dan |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Well guys...this is the TECHNICAL forum. :D
There are many other variables that go into what makes a particular rest more forgiving or accurate. There are two things that I try to do with any rest I put on a bow. Set the bow as close to centering the berger holes as I can, and more importantly IMO, mounting the rest as close to the riser as I can get it and still have it setup properly. The reason is simple, the throat of the grip is your pivot point (where hand torque comes from). If the rest is touching the arrow shaft directly above this pivot point or as close as you can get it, hand torque is reduced. My old rest, an APA Twister Safari, did an outstanding job of putting me above this pivot point because of its design. My Whammy, as with almost every other rest out there, put it behind this pivot point. THe idea is to get it as close as you can. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Even in theory 1,the string is still attached to the arrow when torque is applied so if there is no guidance up front,the arrow will stray further than it will if there is guidance at the front.Torque is magnified at the back end and is very small at the rest,especially if you are above your hand with the rest(remember the problems with overdraws).It is conceivable in theory that if the torque is bad enough,the arrow would hit the riser if the rest wasn't in contact with the arrow.
There is a reason the pros have been using springsteel rest for decades,even with really touchy risers of years past.They are more forgiving,even in torque induced situations,no,ESPECIALLY in torque induced situations. Remember when torque is applied,the cams actually turn and are pointed away from the target,so if there is no contact with the rest,the arrow is pointed in a completely different direction than the string path.Wonder how a fixed blade head would do in this situation.;) I'll take the extra guidance anyday. I have shot with both and know that when I am using a springsteel rest or a whammy that when I make a bad release and or torque a shot that my results are better than when using an early drop fallaway. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: TFOX Even in theory 1,the string is still attached to the arrow when torque is applied so if there is no guidance up front,the arrow will stray further than it will if there is guidance at the front.Torque is magnified at the back end and is very small at the rest,especially if you are above your hand with the rest(remember the problems with overdraws).It is conceivable in theory that if the torque is bad enough,the arrow would hit the riser if the rest wasn't in contact with the arrow. There is a reason the pros have been using springsteel rest for decades,even with really touchy risers of years past.They are more forgiving,even in torque induced situations,no,ESPECIALLY in torque induced situations. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: TFOX Even in theory 1,the string is still attached to the arrow when torque is applied so if there is no guidance up front,the arrow will stray further than it will if there is guidance at the front.Torque is magnified at the back end and is very small at the rest,especially if you are above your hand with the rest(remember the problems with overdraws).It is conceivable in theory that if the torque is bad enough,the arrow would hit the riser if the rest wasn't in contact with the arrow. There is a reason the pros have been using springsteel rest for decades,even with really touchy risers of years past.They are more forgiving,even in torque induced situations,no,ESPECIALLY in torque induced situations. Remember when torque is applied,the cams actually turn and are pointed away from the target,so if there is no contact with the rest,the arrow is pointed in a completely different direction than the string path.Wonder how a fixed blade head would do in this situation.;) I'll take the extra guidance anyday. I have shot with both and know that when I am using a springsteel rest or a whammy that when I make a bad release and or torque a shot that my results are better than when using an early drop fallaway. This was added before as you were posting big. I even remember trying to get more forgiveness out of my Trophy Takers by adding some rubber on my rest cable to have it stay up longer but not add extra tension to my cables.Reason,I needed it up longer(can't believe I just said that on an open forum:D) |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Big,being a hunter or a pro archer is irrelevant,the point is which is more forgiving and in my educated opinion,the rest that stays up longer and still gives complete fletching clearance is more forgiving for both, especially if they torque a bow.
I actually used to torque a bow pretty good myself.[&:] |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Well, I have tried rests timed to drop within 1" of full draw. And thats a different story. But I time mine to stay up within 3" of full draw usually. When an arrow is released, its probably more like 5" with speed of things happening. But I also will put tension on my downwards cable. I hear folks complain about this, but can't say I have seen any issues with this with single or binary cams.
|
RE: Dropaway conversation
Coming up a full 3" early of full draw will have the rest up a long time at release.That is what I usually did as well and I had no huge issues with cable torque but I prefer as little as possible.The rubber idea was a great idea,just the rubber would not hold up and was demolished in short order.
In no way am I saying that early drop fallaways are not accurate.All rest are accurate,it is just that some are more forgiving than others.MOST are more than adequate to get the job done on the range or in the field. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: muzzyman88 bigcountry, you bring up a very good point. For the masses, most will say and notice that theory #1 is more consistant for them, especially at hunting distances. For the guys that have good form and shoot very well, then theory #2 is perhaps the way to go. However, in most cases, traditional drop aways are still more than adequate for a hunting setup. Me, I'm on the fence. I'm a hunter first and foremost, but I also want the most accuracy I can obtain. For me, that is the LD or Whammy. The way i see it is this... Last year i probably shot upwards of 7-10,000 times. 3 of those were at deer. 3 of those deer died. Imho, it doesnt take all of this technical mumbo jumbo that most of us go through to do the deed;) I like most though, want to have my setup rock solid, but... i admit that i dont think it is necessarry anymore now that i shoot target soo much. I honestly think that i could easily go out and shoot a pse nova at 55#'s and kill my deer:D I believe most like BC said are the same way as theory #1. They dont NEED the super forgiving, but shooter reliable setup. They need something that will get the job done, and make their job as fail proof as possible. Thats why i say whisker bisquits for lots of people!!! Most dont need to shoot 4 in. groups at 60 yards. They need to kill deer at around a maximum of 30-40 or so and a tm hunter will do the job. So... in a nutshell i guess some people dont need a rest like the LD or the Whammy b/c it will take time and effort to perfect the system to make its full potential, and most bowhunters dont have that kind of time to perfect their shooting. That is no put down, its just the truth. Archery is my thing, but for most, the bow is just the tool that they use to get the critter. The hunt and harvest is what is intriguing, not the weapon. Theory #3??? Derek |
RE: Dropaway conversation
TFOX,I have read and understand what you have stated. It makes sense to me. However, how can one explain the WB and how unforgiving it is then? It's the same concept is it not? I used to shoot one then went to the ultra rest timed to fall within the first inch or so of release. My groups improved instantly. I suppose I was torquing my bow at times to some extent but over all my groups improved even with that in mind. Not trying to argue here, simply trying to put all of this together considering I have different drop away rests.
Derek, I like your #3 theory and believe it is correct for many shooters. Ed |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: N2D how can one explain the WB and how unforgiving it is then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwTizMtvKwI Russ (WWAG) I still have your rest, found it that box of gear I got back- I had mentioned it on another thread, maybe you did not see it, but Trophy Ridge has a rest this year that is pretty much a copy of yours! |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Agreed Jeff, this was an extreme example. However, the concept is the same. It would seem to me that the longer the arrow is on the rest the more time it has to be torqued, or, display/expand shooting form error.
Ed |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: N2D Agreed Jeff, this was an extreme example. However, the concept is the same. It would seem to me that the longer the arrow is on the rest the more time it has to be torqued, or, display/expand shooting form error. Ed  |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Just to add a tad bit more to this. IMHO I will agree with everyone who has added their view to this thread.
What I would say again, in my view, some rests are more forgiving than others, somerestsrequire more work to tune, etc, etc. However, it is my opinion the more forgiving a rest or a bow is, the 'less' the shooter will focus on his/her 'form'.On the other hand, ifa bow is less forgiving, the shooter has to practice and concentrate on their form, grip, stance, tension,etc. Thisform focus could and should make the archer a better shooter.I do understand other more casual shooters will pick up a bow and kill their game just as a guys who gives it his all, and there's nothing wrong with that. Kudos to them! Some shooters have more 'natural skill' than others. That's life! On the other hand a bow that is well tuned, a shooter who practices good form because his bow takes a bit more to perfect, will, down the road due to his technique, improve his overall bow skill ability..as Kodiak Archer once corrected me and said..quote." GOOD practice makes perfect". It's up to the individual where they want to go, some are happy with a kill, some are happy with a ten ring shotand some are just fanatical...just would not be happy unless they nail the X ring shot after shot! To each his own...everyone is entitled to their style. Isn't it so? ;) |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: JeffB ORIGINAL: N2D how can one explain the WB and how unforgiving it is then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwTizMtvKwI Russ (WWAG) I still have your rest, found it that box of gear I got back- I had mentioned it on another thread, maybe you did not see it, but Trophy Ridge has a rest this year that is pretty much a copy of yours! |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: walks with a gimp Yes I see that rest! Looks though that it would be easy to have the arrow pop off that small "V" in the launcher. I'd like to try one sometime.  |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Any rest out there will produce good enough accuracy to kill game at typical hunting distances. Some rests inherently are more forgiving of form breakdown than others. This is where I tend to agree with TFOX in that a drop away that stays up longer will yield the most forgiveness. I was on the other side for the longest time thinking that getting the rest out of the equation early was the best scenerio. If you ever watch a slow motion video of a bow being shot, especially from directly behind the shooter, you'll see that the string doesn't follow a perfectly straight path to brace. Cable pressure and even the torque created from the arrow flexing as it moves forward can alter the string path slightly. Guiding the arrow for as long as possible seems to be the best scenerio.
You won't see too many target shooters using a drop away. Most use a fixed rest with a blade. The blades used come in different thicknesses to accomodate different shaft spines and produce the most forgiving setup. Hunters are a different story. We usually use big fletching to guide broadheads. The solution is a drop away to get clearence. But, here is the kicker. If you subscribe to the theory that longer is better in terms of guidence, to do this with standard down cable drop aways, you would would have to set the rest up to come up quite early in the draw cycle. This puts a lot of pressure on your cable. That is where these new, "hybrid" drop aways like the Whammy and LD shine. No pressure on the system, longer guidance, and complete fletching clearence. As I stated before. If you're looking for extreme accuracy and forgiveness, than the new "hybrid" drop aways like the Whammy and LD, IMO, are the best options. This is not to say that any other drop away will not give very good accuracy. I've shot and seen where they do. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: N2D TFOX, I have read and understand what you have stated. It makes sense to me. However, how can one explain the WB and how unforgiving it is then? It's the same concept is it not? I used to shoot one then went to the ultra rest timed to fall within the first inch or so of release. My groups improved instantly. I suppose I was torquing my bow at times to some extent but over all my groups improved even with that in mind. Not trying to argue here, simply trying to put all of this together considering I have different drop away rests. Derek, I like your #3 theory and believe it is correct for many shooters. Ed I have taken a WB and set it up to where the tune should be real close with Blazers.There was a bad high tear in paper(regardless of how the cock vane was turned).Changed fletching to feathers and the high tear was gone.[&:] |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Interesting thread.
I'm considering a prong style rest (Quicktune) versus a Dropzone. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
Interesting thread. I'm considering a prong style rest (Quicktune) versus a Dropzone. |
RE: Dropaway conversation
ORIGINAL: Cougar Mag Interesting thread. I'm considering a prong style rest (Quicktune) versus a Dropzone. I had my previous fallaway wear out on me season before last and I pulled out my old Golden Premier rest.The first day hunting with it I picked up my bow and went to place it between my legs like I have done hundreds of times before and the arrow fell off the rest.Then I was constantly watching my arrow to make sure it wouldn't fall off.Great rest but I don't like having to do that.I was also had some clearance issues with small diameter arrows I use and extreme helical feathers that I like. I put a limb saver rest on within a few days and finished out the season with it.Basically just a Trophy Taker and it is a fine rest but not quite what I was looking for. I then tried the Whammy after the season and haven't looked back.It is exactly what I have been looking for out of a hunting rest.Good containment and plenty of forgiveness. |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:12 PM. |
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.