Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Specs: DC Pat, 70#, 367gn arrow, 28inch draw, release shooter, NAP 4000 drop away rest.

Question: When I tuned to bullet holes my rest is basically aligned with the edge of the arrow shelf ( 1st Pic below). I know the arrow shelf is a little narrow but it just looked a little odd. I noticed the string isnt exactly centered between the limbs but displaced to the left (2nd Pic below) which might explain why my rest is so far to the left. Does this seem odd?

The bow originally came as a 26inch draw. With 28 inch modules and very close to 5gn/lb it' s shooting 295fps {string loop, no nocks, peep sight (no tube), leeches}
Does that sound right?

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo.
The rest should not be that far left.
Did you do a center shot before shooting paper?
Plus when you picked it up from the dealer did they time the cams?
If the cams are not hitting the back wall at exactly the same time then that will throw the arrow off plus you wont have a valley.

The speed is about right you might pick up a few more if the cams are out and you get them back in time

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cabel make sure your not getting vane contact , that will play havoc with tuning . looks like you may have an area on the cabel thats getting smacked . Your way too far to the left .

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo, I have a NAP 4000 on my Dually. Your launcher is way too far left. Start out at 3/4" for center shot. Measure from the center of the arrow (when raised) to the riser. Set the rest to raise the arrow even with the rest mounting hole. On the Pat you should be able to set the rest level, or very slightly below level. Draw the bow & have someone mark where the slide is, at full draw. Adjust the lifting cable to raise the launcher completely while not binding the cables. You can do this by pulling the slide back by hand to the mark. This also allows the launcher to drop quickly enough to give clearance. Set nock point 3/16" high to start. This should get you in the ballpark to start tuning. I' ve had great luck with the 4000 rests, and very minor adjustments were needed, from the starting point. Also, should the lifting cable be in the way, you can twist it clockwise (looking from the back) to gain clearance. Hope this helps.

I forgot to mention I don' t use the rubber thing on the shelf. I cover it with mole skin.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Ausie,
we did a center shot with this cool laser thing at the shop. That center shot was significantly further to the right than where my rest is now. Thing is, when I first shot it I was getting a big tail right tear. So I started moving the rest to the left until it went away and my rest ended up in east-bejesus when it finally shot bullet holes (way left where you see it now).
I just looked at the cam timing and did notice the bottom cam is hitting the stop before the top cam so I' ll have to adjust that. Never tuned a dual cam before, time to download the manual. I' ll get back to you all when I fix the timing.

ijimmy,
No vane contact, clearance is unobstructed.

pdq 5oh,
I' m glad there is someone here in the exact same boat (bow/rest). Now that I' ve noticed the cams are out of time I' ll have to fix that and re-tune but I dont think it' s going to change anything that much. When I set up my rest I did pretty much what you described.

I' ll be back

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo, what arrows are you shooting? The Pat will like a stiffer arrow than the charts suggest. Mine set at 55#, 29" draw likes a PSE 300. Very stiff for the weight.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Uh? Ya, that rest is too far over there.

I Line my rest so the arrow is straight in-line with the centerline of the limbs and riser.

Get that funky thing off the arrow shelf!

Try a stiffer arrow, a lighter grain point, or back off on your limbs. You may be shooting what I call a spaghetti arrow, from not being stiff enough.

Shoot an Easton 2314, after you take that funky thing off the arrow shelf, and align your rest to centerline.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Remember that paper testing is as much a test of your shooting form (especially how bad you' re torquing the bow) as it is a check on bow tune. If you' re sure your form isn' t the problem, then check for cam lean, limb twist, bent riser (rare problems for a new bow, especially a quality product like BowTech, but not unheard of) and I definitely agree you need to double check your arrow spine.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Ok, the cams are in time and it didnt change anything except the back wall seems a little more solid than before and my impact point is slightly higher indicating I picked up some speed. But the main problem of the rest being way to the left is still there.

Here are some things I notice when I look at the bow. When you look at the bow from behind, the string does not line up through the middle of the limbs/riser, it lines up exactly with the left side of the riser. See pic below I know it' s hard to see but I' m square back behind the bow doesnt run through the middle it' s off to the side



I read in the Bowtech manual that the top cam is supposed to lean a little " to the cable rod side" . Here' s a pic of the top cam, what I notice is that the string doesnt feed into the cam straight on and the cam is displaced significanly to the left by a bushing (the bottom cam is exactly the same). Heres the pic


pdq 5oh, does your DC Pat look like this?

forgot to add: I' m shooting Easton Carboneros 400' s cut at 27.5 inches w/100 grn tips.

thanks

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Aye, definitely something wrong. My guess is arow spine. What arrows are shooting? point weight? vanes/feathers? etc.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

JeffB
Arrows: Easton Carbonaeros 400' s, 27.5 inches (nock slot to insert), 100 grain field tips, 2 7/8 vanes (3 of them).

thanks for looking this over

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

I think it' s arrow spine, especially if you are NOT shooting a loop (which I cannot tell from the PICS).

Some points

1) Epic 400 carbon-aeros run softer than a normal 400 class shaft, they run about .420 IIRC. The Excel' s do run true to spine listed. (EDIT they run .415 according to Easton)

2) They use a heavier front insert which weakens spine


I suggest you try a 340 class Easton shaft (even the Epic 340 which runs a bit soft too). Beman ICSH 340, ACC 3-60. Even a CX 300 or GoldTip 75/95.

My PAT DC DEFINITELY liked a stiff arrow. I had the same setup as you, 70 pounds, 28" mods, arrow length was similar, and I shot a loop, no problems with 340 class shafts, but 400 and 390 class shafts (ACC 3-49' s) were a no go.

EDIT: Because I cannot type today for some reason, and I checked the shaft spine)

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

I would bet the problem is cam lean. It is almost impossible to get a good paper tear with a fall away rest when there is significant cam lean present. You get right to left string oscillations upon release, with the fall away rest there is no forward support to offset this.

The upper cam on your patriot is certainly leaning in your picture. It is hard to tell how much. I dumped my DC Pat because the upper cam was leaning several inches inside the lower limb. You can try twisting the cable harness to offset the cam lean. This may alleviate some of your problem.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Radman,

While I don' t neccesarily think it' s the best situation, Bowtech indeed does state that there is supposed to be some cam lean present at " rest" .The bows are built and tweaked to have the cam track straight at full draw.

I had no trouble achieving excellent arrow flight with a drop away when using correctly spined arrows (and not having to resort to putting my arrow rest out so far as Cargo did).

There were some bushing issues with the some of first DC PAT models out that would cause the trouble you had with your bow.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Jeff,

May have been. It was still pretty far off at full draw. When I tweaked the cables to get better alignment, I could not get the cable to ride smoothly in the cam module groove (thus cable wear with a break in the seving). I hate to say it but it was easier just to sell it.

At the time, I was getting great flight with my Black knight and was shooting it most of the time anyway. It now has a cracked limb and is on the way back to Bowtech.

Thank goodness I have an unlimited budget. I am really enjoying this Razortec I just picked up. I probably should never have sold my ' 02 Patriots. Those were great bows.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo,
Center shot on my Pat Dually sits inside the arrow shelf.........without breaking it out of the case and measuring my CXL 350' s sit with the left edge of the shaft just about on the edge of the arrow shelf. Yeah you are out there, and I' ll point at arrow spine as well. Think about it........you are basically shooting the fastest bow in the world so conventional spine charts are tough to apply, plus I think many are on the weak side....especially Gold Tips. Anyway if you are going to err do it on the stiff side, my BowTech duallys LOVE stiff arrows.
I' m shooting CXL 350' s and Linejammers for 3D, and at 29.5" arrow length and 57-60# that I' m shooting their chart shows me almost into the CXL150' s!! I think these bows would detonate a CXL150, and I' d be nervous shooting a 250 at that weight........well that and the fact it would probably be doing about 320fps. ;):D
In any event both my Pat Dually and my Pro40 Dually LOVE these 350' s and they fly like darts.
Also check your fletch clearance off that rest.......just because its a drop away, doesn' t mean for sure it' s getting out of the way. Its a quality rest, but I have heard of some guys getting contact from that model.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Are you 100% sure you are not getting fletching contact with thet " thing on your shelf" :) Take it off or trim it down. I don' t under stand NAP, they sell a drop away and then tell you to stick this holder on your shelf that is almost always going to cause contact???.

I shot my DC pat with leaning cams, out of time and with week GT 5575' s and still got a good tear and good fight.

I have never seen a rest out that far[:o]

Are you sure you are not torquing the heck out of that riser.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

I took that " thing off the shelf" Rack, aligned the rest to center shot and I shot several different arrows of heavier spine than mine (CX 400' s, CXL 350' s and some others I cant remember). All with the same results, a big tail right tear. I had one of the pro' s at the shop shoot it and he got the same results. Then I moved the rest back out and I shot bare shafts too and they' re hitting within an inch of where the fletched shafts are hitting with the rest " way out there" and putting bullet holes in paper.

Bottom line: That rest sure looks funny out there but it tears bullet holes and groups arrows like I' ve never shot before. Helicopters look funny to me but they still fly. I' m leaving until something doesnt work right.

thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo,

Very interesting...

Are you using the NAP replacement slide? with your Rest?

Reason I ask is that the bows are setup with the BT slider which has a minimal amount of cable clearance. When you try an aftermarket slider on the new bows, it will pull the cables farther away (towards the rod) causing more torque in the system, and could be causing things to be " farther out" .

Could be other things too, of course. I guess if the bow is shooting for you like you said , chalk it up as a mystery don' t mess with it! :D

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

JeffB, Does your statement about the bowtech cable slides pertain to models with the infinity cam??
I was considering replacing the slide on my mighty mite with a simms tephlon, just because. Would it be better to leave the one I have on it?

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

JeffB
I' m using the Bowtech cable slide and getting no contact on the cables. I even went out and put a NAP 800 prong rest on and tuned it to bullet holes checking for vane clearance all the way. It ended up being way out there just like the NAP 4000 fall away rest. Case closed.

RE: Tuning my new DC Pat, does this look right?
 

Cargo,

Actually I was not referring to cable/fletching contact, but simply added torque. It' s like the old days of adjustable cable guards: the more clearance you set it for (more torque on the cables), the farther your sights would drift to the left (for a righty)

Dave,

Obviously the bow is setup from the factory for minimal lean with the installed slide. Using the Sims will likely put a bit more torque on the harness and hence limbs, but it should not be overly so. Try it , shoot it and see what happens.

JeffB :D