So whats the deal here?
 

For some odd reason, my bow has started throwing arrows all over creation. And honestly I can't make heads or tails out of it.

So againest my better judgement, I shot through some paper this evening.

I got a dead left tear.... fletchings on the left, point on the right... probably about an inch or two. I've never been much on paper tuning, but what the heck... I don't have space to do anything else... all I got is about 25-30 yards and thats if I'm at the range alone.

So I move the rest over... and it gets worse.... I move it the other way... it gets better to the point of where it was... then starts getting worse. The guide says in that case it's a weak arrow reaction. I'm shooting Easton Axis 340's, 125gr heads, 29.5" draw and arrow, 61#s off an Iron Mace, and I use Tracer nocks. Total arrow weight is around 475 with crests and 2" twisters.

I don't have any clearance issues at all... cams are in perfect sync.... I tried a bunch of different grip positions... including ones that intentionally torqued the bow... and I didn't get much of anything else except a 2 inch left tear.

So, whats up?

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I though you didn't believe in paper tuning ?? :D You shouldn't have a tear that bad. I can't see a fixed blade head flying well with that kinda tear. Did you by chance shoot it through paper before ?

I think weak arrow reaction is out of the question with those arrows. The Axis shafts I've played with the past few years seem to be pretty tolerant of draw weight.

This might sound picky, but about 3 weeks ago I was playing with my bow, and twisting/untwisting the string to get my peep to turn in. Obviously, that changes the draw length slightly........Not a bunch, but enough so that if I went to far in either direction, I'd blow a tear through the paper that was similar to your's if the length was to short, or to long. Sounds crazy huh? But that was the case. Timing was otherwise dead on. This wasen't a case of string stretch, just me getting the peep set and paper tuning at the same time. I got a bullet hole with it, then walked-back and it was perfect. This little incident tipped me off and gave me an idea that this may be a good way to check if my draw is set properly for me and my shooting style.

NowI know nothing aboutyourbow and it's cam/cable system. But do you have aY cable off the toplimbthat can you can twist/untwist to perhaps fix aleaning cam ? Have you looked at your cams ?

Usually if something is wrong in arrow flight, I can pick it up at 30 yards on a walk back. 40 just further convinces me, but most of the time it'll show up at 30 enough to tell me which way I need to go with the rest.

By the way.......what rest are you shooting ? Has something gone wrong there ?...... - fall away cord stretched, spring broke etc...I've had stretched drop-away cord drive me nuts for a week. That cord does stretch...

And are you right handed ?

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Thanks for the insights Mikey. No, I don't really believe in paper tuning. but shooting Tracer nocks... I can see the thing kicking left anyway.... all the paper did was show me just how much and at what distance the arrow corrected itself (about 9 yards).

As to your follow up questions, yes I'm right handed.

The Iron Mace has the same cam system as a bowtech binary cam bow, only its called a Trinary on a High Country.

I'm shooting a QAD Pro LD. No signs of fletching contact.

Today at work, I had the boss look at it while I drew it and vice versa. We agreed that the top cam was coming over a bit faster than the bottom. Took two twists out and it looked to stablize a bit. It also seemed that my nock point was low... I don't know how that happened, but I moved that up too. Rechecked the center shot and basically went back to square one. Went up and shot it.... exact same crap.... still kicking left.

I'm vexed.... I'm about ready to ground tune the thing.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Could something be wrong with your release? Not you, but the actual release. I use a double jawed release and I imagine if one of the jaws was sticking it may have a bad effect on my shot. Maybe you could even try a different release if you have one handy or wait til you get back to work.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

That definitely got a good laugh :D

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Hell it could be anything. I punched the release and failed to follow through a few times this evening trying to watch the arrow to see if whatever I tried netted any result. The times I did get a good shot off it didn't seem any different.

To put it in perspective, I only shot at 20 yards today. I shot at a clean vegas 3 spot target, and was consistantly hitting the 9, 10 and x rings..... infact, I'd shoot three ends of two arrows each and have clover leaf holes... I mean I was nailing what I was shooting at.... but I can see the damn arrow kicking hard left... and I know when I put broadheads on that its going to get all snotty on me. The thing was shooting like a lazer two weeks ago.... now its shooting like a potato gun.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

My QAD threw fits for me this year to man. I don't know what the deal was. I took it off,and threw on my old Bodoodle Pro Lite and haven't had an issue since. I would almost try a new rest if you can change it out and shoot it without ruining hunting time. I'd almost bet something isn't working correctly there. If the bow is timed properly, tiller is on, and the centershot is on, either the rest is muffing the shot, or LOL...you're just plain screwing it up yourself ! :D

Maybe you can try that "french tuning" deal where you hang a string vertically from a target and shoot at it at 5 and 10 yards. I'm not sure what the procedure is, but it's basially the same as walk-back....but you dont' need 40-60 yards to do it. I haven't read to much about it here, but there are some links on archerytalk describing it.

Did you shoot closer than 9 yards ? Like 6 feet or so? I may of mis read your statement about that...

I can't remember(as a right handed shooter) the last time I dealt with a bad tail-left tear in paper. If I did, it was usually something amiss in the cables causing cam lean.

AND..check your nocks. I had a lighted nock 2 years ago that flat out wouldn't shoot for crap. I switched it out for an original easton nock, and walla.....back to normal. Never touched 'em again. In fact, I change nocks rather often. For indoor spot season, I shoot 3-4 nites a week, I'll junk them after 2 or 3 weeks and install new ones.

But all in all, if you can walk it back somehow, and shoot some broadheads and get them to group, it's probably not a huge deal then. If that arrow is stabalized at 9 yards, and flying well after that..............how many deer do you shoot inside 9 yards ? Probably not as many as you do from 15-25 right ?

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I've used nothing but for the last four years (save one short stint on this bow with a Schaffer) and I've never had the first issue. The rest is dropping fine and locking down fine. No plastic on the forks and no marring on the vanes.


Yes I did. I started at about 8 feet and gradually worked my way back. 9 yards happened to be the distance where I got a perfect hole everytime.... and of course from there on back.

I thought it was cam lean. Thats why I started monkeyin' with the way I held the bow. I could watch my hand torque the cams and make them lean, just by where my thumb was. But no matter how I twisted it..... I got the same result.

That is honestly what I'm thinking it might be. I left the bow at the shop, and I'm going to go in early tomorrow to mess with it some more. I think putting a regular X nock back in might be the first thing. But honestly, I thought more weight in the back of the arrow would give me a stiff arrow reaction.... I don't know. I do really like the lit nocks though... and I think it would be worth my while to find a way to get them to fly true.

The one thing that I did do a bit differently was crest my arrows really heavy.... I used a right fair bit of paint. And I didn't use any helical on my Twisters either... just a bit of right offset. I thought that might of had something to do with it too. I don't advocate using helical as a bandaid... but I normally do have a fair piece of it on my arrows.

No, I don't shoot many inside 9 yards anymore. My average is about 12 yards. But of course when you have an arrow kicking a good 1.5-2" left, and you put a fixed blade head on it..... I don't even want to know whats going to happen. Moreover, if I don't get it straight, snotty arrow flight is going to be on my mind when I draw back on a deer.... rather than actually shooting the deer.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Man I don't know SwampCollie. You sound like you've covered all the possibilities. Maybe you can build 1 or 2 shafts with no cresting, a regular X nock, and try it. But I've never seen cresting, or a lighted nock cause that much of a disturbance in arrow flight........but then again I haven't played with them that much to draw any concrete conclusions.

I didn't want to sound like I think shooting crooked flying arrows at deer in the woods is my thing, because that's just not right. But I did own a hoyt xtec couple years ago that behaved similarly. No matter what I did, I popped a 1.5" tear left tear in paper at 6 to 10 feet. At 25-30 feet, it was a perfect tear...... it did this with any arrow/point combination I threw atit for 2 years. In all honesty, it shot like a demon with broadheads out to 50 yards, and grouped my muzzy's right with my field points. It was the most comfortable I've everbeen with a hunting bow once I got over the paper tear "problem". So I ran with it, and enjoyed taking 10 deer with it in 2 seasons, anywhere from 10 yards out to 55. None went over 100yards.

I'mcurious to know what had happened since you said it shot straight before. My bow did that from the beginning, so it's not really a comparable scenario. I hope you figure out, and I'd like to hear from ya if you do. If I think of anything else, I'll post it.

Later man

Mike

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

probably not the PROPER thing to do, but i would throw a fixed head on and try broadhead tuning....


ive found that if i can get my muzzys to shoot with my FPs, any other tuning method will show it tuned....even group tuning, walk backs, bare shaft etc...did it a few weeks ago...i THOUGHT i had perfect flight..muzzys were VERY finicky...sometimes right on...but very inconsistant...flight looked good with BHs and FPs...but i went against everything i knew and started moving the rest a smidge...mind you, this is the DAY before the season!...within a few rounds and adjustments, i hit the "sweet spot" what i thought looked like perfect flight, wasnt. when i hit that "sweet spot" it looked like i gained 50fps lol....thats why im a believer in the broadhead tune...



also, have someone else shoot it...just to rule yourself outta the equation...maybe its a torque after the shot or something that may be going un-noticed....i had that issue for a while...wasnt panic or punching...just not following through...as soon as the release was tripped, i was throwing the shot...it was UGLY...took alot of time and effort to get it worked out...just something to think about....

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I would venture one of two things you had some stretch in your string/cables or and I think this is more likely, you are underspined and/or your FOC is off. The 125 tips are pushing it and adding the wt of the tracernocks is likely too much. If you want to use the nocks First thing to do is see where on the arrow it balances. If it is less than one inch past center it is too nock heavy. Thing is the spine may be too light for more wt. on the tip but you can try. That cam is a bit harsh and can put arrows off the chart. Try a stiffer shaft.

My crossbow was not grouping or tuning well and a guy that knows more than me about them told me to make the FOC balance at least 2" FOC. I thought he was crazy. He also told me to go with a shorter shaft, even lighter, which again, being it is a 200lb model I thought the guy was off base. Guess what...It now stacks arrows like cordwood. FOC is important in all manner of archery. 7% FOC is a good starting point for a compound.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I'm with you there dryridge. I know that prior to installing the tracers, my arrows were at 14% FOC. I haven't rechecked it since. And I do remember that before I used them, and heck even before I crested my arrows, I could watch those things in the day light with regular nocks just fly like a falcon toward the target. I would have thought that more weight in the back, while decreasing FOC, would not make the arrow spine any differently... if anything perhaps a bit stiffer.

One thing I did try the day before yesterday was putting some 100gr points on... and that just made it worse. So if by decreasing my FOC, things got worse, maybe it would get better if I increased it. I have some 25gr Boosters that I think I'll install behind my 125gr field points. I might have to back down a couple #s, which is just fine with me. But maybe that will do it.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I know this sounds strange but , try some new or different nocks .

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Collie,

Adding weight to either end will drop the spine value. Just like a BH that is too heavy, a nock will worsen the spine issue.
Adding wt to the front is a good place to start. If it is FOC it should improve, if it is spine it may worsen. I would try a heavier spine if this doesn't help. Maybe just make up one or two and see if they hit better or fly better. You are good enough to tell the difference, I have not doubt.

One thought. Do you notice any more noise during the shot? That is a sign of underspine as well. It will be subtle but should be noticable. It has to do with energy absorption abilities. More wt. added to a shaft does not improve spine, it really does decrease it.

Good Luck Ol' Pal.

Dave.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

I noticed a bit more noise last week. Granted, I was shooting in a different place than normal... an inside range with wood walls. I know when it comes to noise, that pretty much makes the noise issue moot.... because everything is loud in a range like that.

Today I tried a regular axis 340.... 3 blazers, no crests, 125gr heads..... same result.... more or less. I put the lighted nock on just to see what the difference was.... same thing.

I tried a booster to see if it was more or less... .and I honestly think it helped. So FOC might have been part of the problem.... notice that last sentence has problem in a past tense.... read on......

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

UPDATE:


Last night, when my boss shot the bow while I watched to get a second opinion.... I noticed he did something different, and when I asked him about it today, he said that he didn't mean to do it. But I noticed his hand was a lot lower on the grip than mine.... infact, there was about a one inch gap below the flares that make up the riser shelf.

Just for S&Gs I tried moving my hand down the grip today....

Perfect arrow flight.

I don't know what in the world was causing it, or exactly why in the devil that fixed it... neither did my boss who has been doing this for over 35 years... but both us did agree on this.... you cannot argue with results... and a lot of the time a bow can be a fickle as a woman.... not all fixes work the same on every one, and sometimes what makes them happy is just downright weird.

Dryridge/Dave you ever heard of such a thing, or does anything like that make sense to you? She is shooting like a champ again.... but why do I suddenly have to move my hand down an inch to get good flight?

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

It sounds like you had a weird case where the bow was being vertically "torqued". That's highly unusal. Sometimes the string stretching slightly will cause the need for gripping differently. Without looking at/shooting the bow,it's almost impossible to determine wether it's string stretch,underspine,or balance/grip problem. Glad you figured it out as I know it was driving you crazy and that would've really affected your shooting self confidence. I'm sorry I didn't read this post sooner since even tho yall know a lot more about bows than I,sometimes a fresh view is welcomed.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

ALWAYS! Not sometimes... ALWAYS! Mechanics, doctors, farmers... all sorts of folks who are good at what they do usually welcome a second opinion on a tough problem.

As to vertical torquing... thats a new term for me. The only thing that I can figure, and I've been monkeyin' with it some this morning is that when I "tiller tuned" to get the limbs working in harmony, I might have over done it on backing the top limb off... maybe thats why moving my hand (the fulcrum) down made such a difference. I've been making limb adjustments in like 1/8 turn increments just babying the thing back into tune.... so far all is well again.... one of those "happenings" I suppose that just can't be explained.......??????

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Playing with the tiller like that can cause the issues you encountered. I experienced it this past summer myself setting up my hunting bow. It can drive you nuts, as you probably learned:D. I used Arthur P.'s method that's a sticky here, and I also played with another version of it that helped me fine tune the "hold" on my bow.

I've never shot an Iron Mace, but it does have a wood grip on it, correct? perhaps you can take it off, and shoot just off the riser. Might be worth a shot, you may find it's easier to hit the "sweet spot" shooting in that way.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Collie,

You asked if I had ever seen anything like this....indeed I have. I was once trying a prototype Jennings(what later became the Buckmaster)and it shot really good. I loved that thing BUT....it just didn'tfit my hand.The meat of my thumb pushed the top of my thumb knuckle hard into the bottom of the shelf. It got so bad it bled.I called and asked if I could sand the grip.... NO, I wiggled my hand around all over that thing trying to find a good spot but never really did.Then after a 100 arrows or so, suddenly it just went haywire. Got louder and started shooting all over. That thing had me near target panic. I took the grip off and it Viola'... I studied everything and found a small crack in the grip. Nothing big and surely not enough to make it shoot off I thought. So, I went back to the drawing board. I relooked at everything....now remember, One cams were in their infancy and tuning was trial and error. The tiller was off and the tech man told me that was because of the small idler. OK, So what can it be.
It was a TILLER issue. Once the cable stretched it caused a change in the takeup of the buss. I only noticed it because I had someone else shoot and I noticed the cable seemed to get slack momentarily during the draw cycle. HMMMM Well I then realized the draw stop was now changed. Same length...different spot in the valley. It was getting a hard kick and since the cam had the take up on the left side it was pulling it in my hand during the shot cycle. I twisted it up and then set the limbs at dead even tiller, set the nock at dead level. It shot like a dream. I made a grip for it with a much lower wrist as well as thinner and never had another issue. I asked if I could keep that bow for my work. They did indeed. I killed 14 straight critters with 14 shots before retiring it. (But don't tell the company that was sponsoring me they might not have liked that too well)....LOL!!!

Deed, I would take the grip off and try it. That don't help. Recable and string and start over.

Sorry, I know this is just more Maybe's but it is trial and error>

Dave

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

Oh yeah..... thats the name of the game.... all I'm trying to do is error less and with fewer tries. :D



Mikey;

My Iron Mace just has faux carbon fiber side plates.... so I'm already shooting right off the riser. It comes with Winner's Choice strings and cables, and I am a believer in changing strings every two years.... maybe I ought to make it every year. $75 is cheap in the great scheme of things. And I'm waiting to see what the big three put out for 09.... I've got a burr in my saddle for an admiral... and the SWAT I saw the other day won't too shabby either... I'll see what Mathews puts out.... but I might replace the bow before replacing the string... just simply to spoil myself! I do like to tinker.

RE: So whats the deal here?
 

NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!!!

I just reread your last previous post about the TILLER issue and Let apologize. For some reason that went right over my head. The low grip sunk in and apparently I started thinking about any issues from the past with that and darn if that tiller tuning didn't just go out the window.

That said, I think you are on the right track. Still could be a string and cable issue but instead of new just tune up what you got. And forgive my stupidity on the grip. I thought that was a real griip on those, not side plates. One tip. Once you get it tiller tuned it will not really do much good to recall andreset it at those measurements because as you know the cam timing changes with any twisting of the cable which will in turn change the tiller. So, it will be a constant tinker, but hey, that should be right up our alley!!!! Lastly, I had a High Country that did the same thing and it did it continually. I mean every time I shot the thing and put it up I had to ReTime it. It go so monotonous I just carried a limb bolt allen wrench in my pocket and set it with them. Once they got cranked down too tight I would loosen them and ctwist up my cables/string and start over. My hunting buddy said that was just stupidity to keep dealing with that bow......He just didn't understand how addicting tinkering can be!!!

Materials are much better now and I bet you will not see another change in a while.

You are doing just fine in figuring this stuff out. Thanks for making this old dog feel somewhat useful again anyway.

Good Luck in the woods,

Dave