Front of Center
 

I just got done building a few maxima hunter 350's with a front of center of about 14.4%. I was just curious what everyones input is on recomended FOC, and how much difference it can make. Everyone's input is welcome.

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I would be happy with 14.4%. My current arrow has 17% FOC and any new deer arrows I make will be that high or higher. I wouldn't use less than 12% for deer hunting and probably wouldn't try to get much more tha 20-22%. I also like a heavier arrow (500gr minimum total weight)with that good FOC. I know everyone doesn't like heavier arrows but I think regardless of heavy/light arrowyou need agood FOC. I think a good range is between 12-20%.

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Thanks bruce. I havent had a chance to weight these but they should be right around 385 grains. I prefer to keep mine under 400 grains, just presonal preferance.

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I am a huge proponent of High FOC arrows. My setup last year was a 2005 Old Glory set up shooting 65lbs with 453 grn arrows with a FOC of 22% (205 grains up front on the arrow) shooting at 260FPS with Kinetic energy of 67 ft lbs. My bow has never shot better than it does with a high FOC setup. those arrows are flying great. I highly reccomend tinkering sometime with an arrow setup with a FOC over 18 or 19 trust me you will notice a difference. Yes it will slow your arrows down and you may have to go up in spine weight but, trust me arrows with that weight up front really pack a punch. Read some of the reports by Dr. Ashby on broadheads and you will she he is also a huge propent of this also and has the scientific evidence to back it up.

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14.4% is good. I am usually Happy with anything 12% or more. I built aset of FMJ's last year and ended up with over 20% but I used brass inserts to accomplish it.

Dan

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Not to be a stickler but FOC is Forward Of Center. "Front Of Center" is just poor English and it makes me cringe every time I hear it. Mine has always been about 12% for my hunting arrows and a bit less for target arrows. They have always grouped fine at that FOC but I've never tried anything radical to get more and see if they get better. If I can't get the heavier shaft weight since Easton dropped the A/C Superslim I may try the A/C/C next time and use a brass insert to make up the difference to get a 500 grain arrow which is also going to up the FOC substantially.

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thanks guys, Ill work on my english Kodiak ;)

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Don't feel bad, at least you're in good company; a majority that even includes CX. ;)[8D]

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If bow and arrow are set up correctly I doubt a high FOC will help produce better groups. It is my understanding that the high FOC makes the arrow flighta little more forgiving in poor conditions and really helps with penetration. I know that, from my own experience, my 17% FOC arrows would definitely out penetrate my targets compared to arrows that I have at around 11-12% FOC. I set my deer arrows up with a high FOC for the better penetration it is supposed to provide.

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I like heavy FOC too. I shoot about 12.5% on 3D and 21.7 % for hunting.

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But is that from the high FOC or from a higher total weight? If the two arrows are hitting equally square I can't see how a high FOC is going to make a difference in penetration between two shafts of the same weight. The higher FOC arrow would however have a tendency to hit more square in most circumstances (meaning the imperfect world) since the fletching has better leverage on the tip to keep it in a straight trajectory, and would therefore penetrate better.

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Weight forward will out penetrate and arrow with the weight more distributed. How much that matters on deer sized game with how high the momentum is on most bows today is debatable. With most of the mass near the front of the arrow you will not have the arrow flexing as much upon impact and therefore maintaining forward momentum more efficiently.

With the weight near the back it will force the shaft to flex upon impact and youwill loose momentum.

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You could have two 400gr arrows but one could have a 15%FOC and the other could have a 10%FOC and the 15 is supposed to out penetrate the 10. With the higher FOC, the way I think of it from my readings,the back of the arrow is more inclined to follow the front. Yes, if the arrows hit equally square the initial force would be centered but once flesh and bone start influencing the the arrow the back will no longer be centered behind the front. That is when the extra weight, higher FOC, matters.

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Agreed with everything you say except........LOL it probably doesn't matter so much if your DW is 60lbs+ but if you are shooting a lower DW and not generating the FPS that 65-70lbs gives you then the higher FOC is nice insurance to have. I am thinking young folks getting into the sport, smaller women that don't have draw length, folks that just want to shoot low DW, stuff like that.

This spring I am going to set up one arrow to shoot at 53lbs DW. the arrow will have 15.3%FOC and weigh 356grs. It will still be going pretty fast but IMO the higher FOC will be a benefit with the lighter arrow.

One of the things I have come to love about archery/bowhunting is that there is room for many, many well thought out variations of accomplishing the same thing, taking game with bow and arrow.

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bruce,

I agree with you. I should have stated a minimum DW when making my post. Lower DW's would benefit from the increased FOC.

I'd like to thank whoever told me about the Arrow Dynamics Nitro Stingers. I purchased the "Gold" model which is 8.9 gpi and my total arrow is 437 gr. They are an easy$85 way of increasing the FOC with standard BH's. My FOC went from 12.3 or so to 14.5% just by switching to these arrows and no change in arrow weight from the GT XT Hunters.

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You guys are sort of on the right track;)

You are not going to see a great big difference going from 12% to 15% FOC.

You wont see any real big difference till you get the FOC to 19% and above.

ArthurP, Straightarrow and myself got jumped all over here not so long ago about this very subject.:D

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I think the thing people disagreed with is that if you need to have that high of an FOC and such and so forth with today's equipment.Not about the benefits of very high FOC for slow bows.;)

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Dave.

High FOC even has it's benifits for fast bows as well;)

Less wind drift in a cross wind is just one of them:)

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I'veseen very little deviation from my aim point in high winds with12.3% FOC.During this winter I've shot out to 120 yds in high winds and gusting winds (20+mph in an open field). The only issueI had out pastmy bottom pin's range was judging holdover.I did not see any arrow drift.

I understand the physics of what you are saying very clearly and respect that. I've just seen no reason to try it.

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I don't doubt you don't see dramatic benefits at 12.3%. That is just barely nudging it's noseto the top of 'standard' FOC range. You aren't high FOC until you get into 13-18% range. 19% and over is where you get into extreme FOC, and that's where penetration potential really takes off.

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I have several sets of arrows I use for hunting CX Maximas, CX Maxima Hunters, ACC's, and FMJ's. I built the FMJ's late last year and used the brass HIT inserts. The FOC on that arrow with a 125 grain Slick Trick is over 20%. All my hunting arrows have a minimum of 12% and the FMJ's with the high FOC have a noted advantage in forgiveness to me. I don't think you would say I shoot a slow bow.

Dan

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10%-15% is best in my opinion. Anything higher and you begin to lose toomuch speed for what increase in penetration you gain.

Besides, it's all about shot placement.

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Lose too much speed above 15% FOC. I have an FOC of 22% and my bow still shoots 260fps. And still its been proven by Dr. Ed Ashby that even with slower bows with high to extreme FOC out perform penetration wise a faster bow with a lower FOC. If you haven't read his reports, they are a great education in archery

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I get two pages into his reports and I fall asleep.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate technical documents. In my line of work I read them a lot.

I just need Ashby's Cliff Notes version. :D

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Call me crazy but I am not willing to sacrifice speed for FOC.

The more speed I can get, the closer my pins are to each other, the easier it becomes to judge distance and make a solid shot.

My arrows fly great with as little as 10% FOC.

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I've read Ashby's entire report. I believe you are misquoting what he said. He says a slow heavy arrow with high FOC will out penetrate a fast light arrow with a low FOC.Ther are a lot of variables that make that equation correct. how fast and heavy is the slow arrow and how light is the fast arrow?

Furthermore, he never states that youshould not use 12% FOC for hunting and states that there are many factors that can be taken into consideration that he left out by using similar diameter arrows and such. And, his entire report was based around the fact that he wanted arrows for hunting Cape buffalo.

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High FOC does NOT affect speed at all.Total arrow weight affects speed. You don't have to lose speed to shoot extreme FOC if you don't want to. You just have to put some thought and effortinto your arrow design.

There are very light shafts you can combine with weighted inserts and heavy tips and still maintain the total arrow weight you want. High Country's Speed Pro shafts spring to mind immediately.Plus you can usually bump up FOC by a couple of extrapoints just by switching from vanes to feathers.

Good grief, Dave! You need to sit down and read the reports, not just skim through them. "He wanted arrows for hunting Cape Bufflalo..." That's not even close to being the reason he's spent all these years putting together this body of research.

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Then I will say get to know your bow and become better at judging distance or better yet buy a range finder:D

My bow at 61lb with a 28" draw lenght is pushing my extreme 24.8%FOC arrows out at 277fps.

At longer ranges my pins are actually closer together than they are for the shorter distances.

Meaning my arrows are maintaining more speed and momentium down range, I wont even mention the thud they hit the target at.

Don't knock it if you have not tried it:D

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The reason he started doing the research was for hunting Aftrican Game. He states that on the first page. I know he goes into deer sized game and such. However, most of his tests were performed on heavy skin and heavy bone.

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Right Dave, But wouldn't you want the most penetration you could possibly get?

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Read what Arthur says above. FOC has nothing to do with maintaining speed. Arrow weight does. Two arrows of the same weight but different FOC's will maintain the same speed. The FOC has no benefit until the arrow strikes the target.

I'm not nocking anyone's choice of arrow set-up or bow set-up myself. We all have a personal preference and there is nothing wrong with 10-15% FOC for hunting.

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Dave, you realize he was doing the originalresearch for the Nepal gov't, who was trying to determine what archery rigs should be legal for hunting big game, right? Did you know that he is currently doing a follow-up study in Australia? This new study is where he's found out so much about the benefits of extreme FOC. Check out his updates on tradgang.

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You make it sound like I'm an unethical hunter for shooting the set-up I have? You are also making it sound like any hunter that does not shoot an extreme FOC arrow is also unethical.

I have a 437 gr arrow that is traveling at 293 fps.The arrow has more momentum than a 700 gr arrow at 180 fps. Many people on here do not shoot a 700 gr arrow; noteven a 600 gr arrow for that matter. A few don't even shoot a 430 gr arrow that talk about high FOC. They have a slower and lighter arrow thatI will bet money will not out penetrate even with 25% FOC. Bottom line is that my arrowhas enough momentum from arrow weight and speed.

The momentum my arrow has isenough for any animal on this continent. I hate using this term. "But my arrow will blow through most animals" and is more ethical than many of the long bow (or low DL) heavy arrowset-ups I see people use that have arrows sticking out of animals that they shot.

I'm not nocking people that shoot high FOC. It's their choice and people should be comfortable in their equipment.

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No disrespect to Ashby or you but I'm not interested. I'm sure it will be well written and an excellent article in it's wonright.

I'm intelligent enough to know what an arrow can and can't do based on the weight displacement, velocity, arrow spine, etc. If the FOC was a concern I'd do something about it.

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Art, I've found out that you'll go blind before we get our point across. I've quit a long time ago trying. I just grin and bear it. :D

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I'm not trying to convince anyone to shoot extreme FOC. None of my business. I'm just not too fond of someone saying they read Ashby's report and then start tossing out little 'factoids' that prove they either ---didn't read more than the first paragraph or two --- or read it while brain dead --- or completely misinterpreted practically everything in it.

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That's too funny.:D:D:D

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Ok Ive seen that muzzy makes brass inserts, my question is do they make one to fit the CX Maxima Hunter 350 shafts and I was also wondering does anyone know of a brass insert that wasnt quit as heavy. I think muzzy has a 50 grain, thats a little heavier than I wanted to go.

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Try here.

http://www.3riversarchery.com/Thumb.asp?c=57&s=47&p=257

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I'm pretty sure I said the report was for big game and then you guys say it isn't. Yet, then quote it is. You should try pointing out when one of your own uses a wrong factoid. Now that's too funny.;)