Importance of speed?
 

Just wondering how important speed is in a hunting setup. I shot the General yesterday and loved it but only got 268fps w/400grn hunting arrow. I'm trying to decide which bow to buy but the faster ones I shot seemed to have issues such as low brace height (Katera) Also wondering how much a low brace height under 7. affects current bows.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

The only benifit I have found with a faster bow is the flatter projectile, less chance of shooting over/under a target.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Faster bows hit harder with the same weight arrow, and shoot flatter. Then you weigh that against the cons - like they are usually louder, harder to tune, less forgiving, and don't have as smooth of a draw cycle as a bow with a lower IBO rating. They may be worth it for 3-D shooting and for long range hunting out west, but not for the regular hunter who limits shots to 40 or 45 yards, IMO.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

As for the lower brace height bows, in my opinion they are a lot more trouble than they're worth in the woods. First, your form has to be just that much better to get them to shoot consistently and it's a not so easy to have that perfect form up in a treestand. Add in the excitement of having a deer in front of you, maybe in a tree that's swaying a bit in the wind, maybe you're cold and tired... Any number of things can make it tough to get your form all sorted out, and you might have to pass up a shot because you don't have time to do it anyway. Second, it's a lot harder to keep the string from raking your forearm, especially when you're wearing your cold weather clothes.

The things I want in any bow, but I consider absolutely a MUST for hunting: Comfortable handle that forces me to take a consistent grip on the bow. Smooth, easy draw cycle. Generous brace height - 7 1/2" and up. Enough mass weight to hold steady, but not so heavy it feels like a boat anchor. Easy to tune and holds tune well. One that will shoot well even when I make a minor error with shooting form - better for point of impact to be an inch off the aim point rather than 6". A riser that isn't so deflexed that it's easy to torque, and I'd much rather have a reflexed riser. Consistent arrow to arrow accuracy - I only get one shot at a deer, but it really helps my confidence when I know that one shot will go where I aim it.

Speed doesn't kill. Accuracy does. So, I have to run down a fairly long list of things that will give me the best chance of putting an arrow where I want it before I ever get to speed. In fact, most of the things I look for in a bow work against givng me blazing arrow speed. If I get 250 fps from a bow, I'm a happy camper.

Speed helps in 3D because you're shooting at unmarked, unknown distances. There are no rules in bowhunting that says you have to shoot at unknown distance and, in fact, I consider it a breach of ethics to take a shot when you aren't reasonably certain of the distance. It's a lot easier to learn the exact distance to the animal than it is to ensure you've got perfect form to take that one shot that counts.

The compound I use most for hunting AND 3D is a Hoyt ProTec. 46" axle to axle, modified round wheels, reflexed riser, 8" brace. 60 pounds pull with 65% let-off and I shoot fingers release with no sights. I get about 245 fps with a 450 grain arrow.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Since I started flinging traditional arrows speed means a lot less to me than it used to.......I killed my biggest buck to date this past season w/ a recurve arrow traveling a whopping 185 fps.:)
My Bowtech General is doing 1fps faster than the one you shot at 269fps and I didn't fell handicapped in the least this season using it in IL.
I have bows doing all levels of the speed specturm now and when my Airborne 82nd gets here I will have set-ups that do everything from 185fps all the way up to 345fps with different arrows all serving different purposes. The bottom line is that they all fit well and that they all shoot well for their inteded job. I don't look at the speed anymore just for the sake of speed.
I guess I'm one of those oddballs who can embrace very modest stick and string speeds all the way up to the absolute fastest bow on the market and have a great time shooting all of them.

For a hunting bow as long as the bow tunes well, shoots well, and fits me properly, speed anymore to me is just whatever it happens to be.
My advice is to go with the one that feels the best to you and seems to hold and shoot better in your hands. The vast majority of modern compounds are so overkill for deer sized game now that it's almost silly to split hairs based on speed alone.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

speed speed speed. well i got a speed bow a synergy 7 1/8 brace 61#s 29 1/2 draw .this bow is one of the best bows i have had.i bought this bow so i would not have to crank over 70#s my arm tells me quit that.anyhow this bow shoots my 425 grain hunting arrow at 279fps smoking fast with a good brace height.i did not buy this bow for speed, it was for the 60#s.by the way it does shoot a 305 grain arrow at 326fps.:)

RE: Importance of speed?
 

All good advice except for one thing. Art meant he'd rather have a deflexed riser rather then reflexed. He knows what he meant. Probably just had a brain fart long the way.

You can listen to Matt, too. I've seen that guy shoot. Like a machine.

Barry

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I personally go against the grain on this one. I say faster is better. Does a heavy arrow carry more momentum and KE? Yes. Is a slower arrow more forgiving? Well, to a point, yes.....BUT, todays bows are made inherently more forgiving anyway. Companies are making bows to be more accurate, more forgiving, more repeatable and shootable. Today's bows are just so much more efficient than those of the past....You just don't need the heavy arrow for the KE anymore. Used to, you couldn't get an arrow to fly 240 fps regardless of how light it was. Just not the case anymore.

I'm shooting a 380 grain arrow 313 fps. I'm producing 82 ft pounds of KE....On top of that,for hunting I sight it in for 25 yards. I shoot an inch high at 20 yards and an inch low at 30 yards. Come on. What more could you ask for???

Pysics are pysics, and can't be argued. A 425 grain arrow shot out of my bow will fly slower, BUT..it WILL carry more KE. It WILL, to a degree, be more forgiving. But really, how much KE do you need?? I'm pretty sure 82 is plenty.

As far as the short brace height. You will be more sucesptible to smacking your arm with a short BH bow, but if you install a string supressor, you're in good shape. That pretty much takes care of the arm slap. They are a tad less forgiving, because the arrow is under the power stroke of the cam longer, which is why they produce higher speeds. But here again, companies are making their bows more forgiving just by design and what ever tricks they have, so I personally don't feel it comes into play as much as it used to.

With all that said, a longer ATA bow, with a longer BH, heavy arrow flying slow will indeed be more forgiving. Not as much so as 10 years ago, but they will. But me, I'm going light and fast.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

What's the difference between a reflexed and deflexed riser?

Mat

RE: Importance of speed?
 

More like mental diarrhea. [8D]Thanks for getting my back, BG! :)

Whitetail, the bow in your avatar is a reflexed riser. The grip is behind a line drawnbetween the pivot point in the limb pockets. The grip is in front of that line on a deflexed riser. With the reflexed riser, you are pulling on the cam ends of the limbs and trying to keep the riser ends of the limbs pushed in the same plane. Themore reflexed the riser, theharder it is tokeep the limbs lined up with the direction of the shot and the easier it is to induce torque.

With a deflexed riser, the entire limb is being pulled in the same line. It's very hard to torque the limbs out of alignment with the line of the shot.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I agree, very sound advice!

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Speed is good! Last year I was shootingMaxima Hunter 350's out ofa 70# Golden Eagle Splitfire 2 with a 6"bh at 296 fps.I took three deer and didn't have to worry about which pin to use unless it exceeded35 yds. Bought an Elite Synergy this year w/7" bh. It's shooting the same arrow w/lighterbroadhead at 65# and 310fps. I have 3 pins set. 0-35, 40, & 50. Took two deer this year. I really like being able to pick a spot and not worry about whether it is 15 or 30 yards. There isn't an inch difference in the point of impact and there is more than enough KE to blow through any deer. Both deer taken this year were shot after they walked past me, over the rear hip, through the lung and, on the buck,centering the heart.The arrow passedthrough a lot of meat andneither deer wentover 50 yards.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I am confident shooting bows any where along the Speed chart. I use a range finder regardless. I personally like as fast a bow as I can shoot comfortably and pleasureably. I shot the Guardian this season the majority of the time and honestly have not chronographed my current arrow, but it makes me no difference. It will be in the truck with me when I head west for a late season Mule Deer hunt next week and a Good Buck better not give me a shot at 45 yards and in or he is in trouble;)
The more I shoot the General the better I like it. It truly is the most shock free, quiet Bow I have ever shot, and each year I make a point to shoot them all:D
I still remember when archers thought a hunting rig shooting over 200fps was fast;)

Dan

RE: Importance of speed?
 

You better get out here, Dan. The Mule Deer are rutting big time! We were out late season elk hunting this morning and saw 7 different mulie bucks - all pretty much preoccupied with Mrs. Doe. Fresh 8" of snow out here overnight . . . . it was like a Hallmark Christmas Card.

Bringthe General and some Rage 2 blade expandables :)

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Yep!! Talked to the guywho owns the groundwhere I'll be hunting last night, and he pretty much told me the same thing. I am going to try and get Murphy out of my back pocket before I leave. He said they had 7" of snowand it was still snowing last night. I'll be prepared to hunt daylight til dark with a combination of blind hunting and spot and stalk. Now if the right Mulie will cooperate.

I think my Guardian and General will both make the trip. I think my Slick Trick 125 grain Magnums will toast anything out there.
Hope to post pics;)

Dan

RE: Importance of speed?
 

yards
time
drop

6[/size][/font]7
0.047923
0.443354

1213
0.095847
1.773414

1819
0.14377
3.990182

2425
0.191693
7.093656

3031
0.239617
11.08384

3637
0.28754
15.96073

4243
0.335463
21.72432

4849
0.383387
28.37462

5455
0.43131
35.91163

60[font=arial][size=2]61
0.479233
44.33535

This is my table for a 313 fps arrow assuming a perfect parabola and an arrow that doesn't slow down. This shows an arrow zeroed at 25 about 5 inches high at 20 yards and 6 inches low at 30 yards. [Maybe a person could do better with some kind of planing? of the arrow. ]

At any rate, even with this very fast arrow, range estimation is critical even with fairly close targets.

But I think that Arthur P is right on! heavy has a lot of advantages. Speed just has this one (or two, I suppose, less time to jump the string). And penetration is generally much better with heavy, all else being equal.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I can't fix the table without getting a java error, but it should show that the drop is 7, 11 and 16 inches for 20, 25 and 30 yards.

4 high and 5 low if zeroed at 25, not what I said.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Don't worry about the table. I hate arrow drop tables anyway. They don't really mean anything in the real world because we shoot arrows on a trajectory. We need to see trajectory tables if we truly want to know how much difference speed really makes.

Steve Jackson used to have Andrew Middleton's excellent graphing trajectory calculator on his site. Unfortunately,the link is brokennow but I used to spend hours on there comparing different arrows and then trying them out on the range.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Speed is great for hunting. It was at one time to get a speed bow it had to be a low brace height, short are a very extreme reflexed riser. Now days the loop has made it easer to shoot shorter bows. The new fast bow are reflexed, but with the newer cam systems we can shoot them with out them being as critical as the past bows. I'm a old pro finger shooter and have shot a lots different of bows. I was always on a bow company's pro staff and always had shot deflexed risers for years. Now that I shoot a release and a loop right away I could go to shorter bows. I still like a higher brace height and I got me a new Black ice this year and I must say it one that its a real shooter. Quit, fast, very easy to shoot, accurate, 7 1/2 brace height and don't haft to think as much about things like the distance and just make the shot happen. A few inches off can make the different s between a good are a bad hit. It is going to be one of my better shooting hunting bows. Bows have come a long way with the new risers and cam systems. With speed I can get a harder hitting and great penetrating bow with cleaner kills with out shooting a 70 are 80 pound bows like I did before for bowhunting.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

NO TRUER WORDS... with regards to bowhunting...

RE: Importance of speed?
 

well for me i dont care how fast my bow is shooting, it is accuracy and KE, is all that counts, sure you can use 1 pin, and dont get "jumped on the string" as much, but it is harder to tune, less forgiving, and louder.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

As long as I can maintain accuracy, I want my setup to be as fast as humanly possible:D. I'm more concerned with bow noise as I draw the bow back as opposed to noise caused by the shot. I'll never shoot fast enough to beat a deer's reflexes[&:]. I have a short draw length, so smaller braceheights do not bother me. The shortest bh bow I've ever owned was also one of my favorites-a Bowtech Blacknight Dually @ 5 3/4". When I first saw my Equalizer's birth certificate-289fps ibo @26", 50#, I got giddy.:D
Archery is as individual as a sport can be. MY preference is for the scorchers to make up for the lack of draw weight and length. And I do quite well with them, despite the negative generalizations speed bows have.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

faster speeds mean faster misses.with a super light and fast setup it tens to make guys think they can shoot forever with 1 pin and this leads to some not so smart shots.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Personally I like a bow shooting between 275 and 285 fps for a hunting setup. For me that speed seems to be the best compromise between shootability and trajectory. When I exceed 300 fps my groups tend to be less consistent. For a hunting rig, I'll take a quiet bow shooting 260 fps over a loud bow shooting 320 fps any day.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

Actually Mobow, that couldn't be farther from the truth. Every year bows become less and less forgiving because of the shorter ATA's increased reflex and higher let off percentages. Are they more efficient, heck yes they are, but the extra speed comes at a price.

My opinion anyway.

Paul

RE: Importance of speed?
 

On the shorter bows of today they more forgiving that the one of the past The longer risers with shorter limb and parallel limbs. They are not as forgiving than a longer bow, But are getting closer. The loop has help a lot to in the shooting of short bows. Rod White I know him. I work on his bow once in a pro shop and he married a friends daughter.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I agree with MoBow. My Allegiance this year is the fastest Hunting setup I've had to Date and I shoot it better than any bow I've shot in years past;)

Dan

RE: Importance of speed?
 

You can't make a blanket statement that today's short, reflexedbows are almost as forgiving as long ones. SOME might be - Bowtech's Guardian and Commander come to mind -but certainly not all of 'em.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

The Allegiance and Guardian are both 2 of the most accurate bows I've hunted with. I have yet to shoot the Airbornes, but I did opt for a 101. It is slightly faster than the Allegiance while maintaining essentially the same brace height as the Allegiance and a longer A to A. I expect itto be every bit as accurate as the Ally. Having shot several low brace height speed bows of yesteryear The Ally is quite pleasant to shoot and I expect more of the same from the 101;)

Dan

RE: Importance of speed?
 

MeanV2, you hit the nail on the head. Today's bows are becoming more forgiving and smoother to shoot while maintaining the speed. Better bow efficiency and user friendliness, It's as simple as that.;)

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I agree with MeanV2. I shot a fast GE Splitfire 2 for four years prior to purchasing an Elite Synergy this year. It has to be the best bow I've ever shot. Smooth, quite, and very fast. The Allegiance is also a very nice shooter bow with plenty of speed. I have a problem with all the concern about "noisy" bows. The Splitfire I shot for years I thought was the loudest thing around. (I was using18 strands of 8125in thestring, 28" DL, 70#, 390 gr arrow, at 296 fps.) It was loud to me, but I never had a deer get out of the way of the arrow. In fact the only deer that ever caused me to hit high, jumped a very slow bow. Or, did I just not aim low??? I've never had a problem with a deer jumping the string. Got a nice 11 point and a doe this year, both within 15 yards. Almost identical hits exactly where I was aiming. And I have nothing on my string to silence it except MeanV2's "string stopper" on the bow.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I ended my archery season over a month ago and haven't shot until this past weekend. Pulled my Allegiance out and after about 20 warm-up shots from 20 yds to 35was drilling a cup dead center at 65 yds with it on the first shot at that range and the other5 hit within 2 inches of the cup.At 91 yds drilled the vitals of a bull elk 3-D target. Would I ever take shots like that on animals, no. However ,just giving my experience with my fat bow.

I shoot all sorts of angled and body contorted shots and still shoot accurately and I know my form isn't perfect every time. I never did that with any bow I used in the past at that range.I use a short arrow (27.25" w/ a 30"DL)that weighs around 400 grains @ 72 lbs (284 fps). According tosome peoplethat should be a very unforgiving set-up and I had a4 yr layoff from archery. The bow is amazingly forgiving.

If you can shoot it accurately the more speed the better. You'll have increased momentum with the same arrow weight over someone that shoots a slowerbow and if you hit bone you'll be better off.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

It doesn't matter if your bow is fast or slow, a miss is still a miss.

There are benefits to shooting fast. The more you practice, the more benefits you will see.

Every archer should strive for accurate range estimation and proper shooting form. The rest is just personal preference.

RE: Importance of speed?
 

I have been shooting bows now for about 7 years and just recently purchased my first new bow ever It is a iron mace by high country itis shooting 320fps at 28 inch draw length and has a smooth draw and no jump it is and amazing bow i cant waitto shoot a deer with it ibelieve speed with smoothnessis great and this bow has it all


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RE: Importance of speed?
 

Back in the Mid 70's a 20 yard shot with a 2219 arrow would pass through both lungs at under 200 fps and the deer would travel around 50-60+- yards....not much different today.
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