MeanV2

Have at this Brick Wall a while I like Bowdoc am giving up. I am not wasting anymore of my time typing replies to you. You win!! I am sure you know much more, have hunted much more, have shot more setups, killed many more animals, and read much more than I have

Again you Win!!

Dan

bowdoc1

There are lot of defferent kinds of people in this world as in bowhunting. There are bowhunters who think they know every thing and bowhunters that do. Bowhunters that believe every thing they read even if it dosn't work for them are others and bowhunter that try every thing and use what works best for them. There are bowhunters out there who mislead others to get them use what they use are trying to make them think they know it all. There are deer hunters that use a bow just to kill a deer and there are real bowhunters. It up to the real bowhunters to educate the ones that don't know through TV, pro shops, manufactors and the pros. I have seen a lot of things on here and lot of veiws and some times thats what gets me so upset. I have been called a target shooter before because I shoot year round, but I'm a real bowhunter and love my sport. All I do is take it to the limit. You owe it to your game you hunt to be the best you can be and use the best bows and arrows that work for you to make cleanest kills not what some one that trying to make you believe is the best for you because of some thing he has read or thinks.

Put them down

Arthur P

I don't know about that. I've seen absolute garbage being paraded on TV shows. They don't give a rip about anything the sponsors don't pay them to put on the air.

Pro shops? There are some excellent ones, but most aren't even remotely worthy of the name. Call 'em bow stores, if you will, but real pro shops are exceedingly rare. If you find a good one, you're in business. If you have to deal with a bow store, don't believe even half of what they tell you.

Manufacturers? They're mostly - with a couple of notable exceptions - run by bean counters now instead of archers and bowhunters, and they don't give a rip about anything but profits. At this point in history, speed sells.

The pros don't give a rip about anything the manufacturers don't pay them to use and sell. So don't send folks off down that fairy tale path.

Yeah, I've been in archery and bowhunting plenty long enough to have gotten exceedingly cynical about motives. I've watched bowhunters' attitudes turn from doing "what's good for the sport" to "I'm doing what's right for ME."

Absolutely. One of the few things you've said that I completely agree with.

What I can't figure out is why you light arrow freaks get all hot and bothered, and take it as a personal insult when people talk about more conservative, alternate choices in arrow weight and setup.

I definitely warn people off what they read about light arrows, every chance I get. Like I said earlier, I've been a long time advocate of a 400 grain minimum legal arrow weight for hunting, and I am going to continue on that course.

Been real nice talking with you two. I think I'll go have the dentist to give me a root canal so I can finish off my weekend on a high note. [8D]

Straightarrow

RockSlinger, this article brings out an issue that bothers me. It quotes KE figures as if there is a study demonstrating that KE is important when shooting animals. Well, the only study that addresses KE on live animals shows no correlation between KE and penetration.

I've noticed that a lot of people openly don't believe Ashby's study, but I have to wonder why. I look at his methods for conducting the study. I see the results, the charts and the conclusions and I just don't see how anyone can say it's flawed. But the real point is, no one else has done this. There are no other studies on this. How can people promote KE as important for penetration, when there is no study on live animals that supports their view.

Another point - poor penetration out of a recurve is extremely common - even with heavy arrows. The reason is quite obvious to those who have tuned a lot of traditional bows. Spine is critical on these bows - and I mean absolutely critical. Proper arrow flight is difficult for many to acheive and most don't even know the proper way to go about it. Add in the fact that even if you got it right, you could overdraw in a hunting situation, and cause less than ideal arrow flight. When an arrow that is not flying straight, hits an animal, the energy is easily deflected and adsorbed by the side of the arrow instead of the tip. This is also why really high FOCs work so well. Years ago, almost no one shot anything over 15%.

Anyway, my opinion is that articles like this are at best, completely misleading.

The Rev

Good answer Art, I couldn't have siad it mo-betta... I too have seen some of the worst on bowhunting shows, but then again, if your ignorant of the sport, you might think those yoyo's know it all..

You can now change your signature...

Arthur P

Oh.... alright.

bowdoc1

Thanks guys There was two of us on here the had over 80 year combined experence and success. I heard once you can't argure with success, but I was wrong there are some that do

Straightarrow

Well, I think mine and Arthur's adds up to about 90 years - does that mean we win?

Personally, I don't care if you have 300 years experience. Ashby practically does this as a job. More importantly, he carefully records setups, penetration and results. Then, he plots the data and comes up with conclusions based on science, not off the top-of-his-head feelings. A study like his trumps anecdotal heresay - everytime. Success can be acheived with less than ideal setups on small game like whitetails, especially when you don't hit major bones. No one has ever said you can't be successful with light-arrow setups. It's just that heavy-arrow, high-FOC setups have proven to penetrate better in more situations. They are also much more forgiving with drive-by bowhunters who don't have a clue. So yes, we can argue with success.

Kanga

Throw in my 46 years and we are way out in front

Roskoe

Been out of town (hunting) the past four days. This little issue really took on a life of its own here. I personally don't question the trend for heavier shafts to out penetrate lighter shafts, all other thing being equal. So I guess I believe the general concepts put forth by Dr. Ashby. However, there is still a balance between speed and penetration when considering arrow weight.

For instance, I have thought about using very light 3D shafts for antelope hunting. I'm sure they would penetrate this light boned animal adequately, and the flatter trajectory could be a benefit on the long range shots sometimes encountered. However, archery elk season coincides with archery antelope; and I sure don't want to risk a light arrow on an angle shot at a 900 lb. bull elk. Now that I have a second bow, might think about setting up one of them for elk and one for antelope.

But even for elk hunting, the small diameter shafts - particularly the A/C Super Slims and the Axis FMJ - offer a medium weight arrow with serious penetration.