bowdoc1

Thing I do know for sure when the carbon arrow came out we had to go to making better 3 D targets and matts because the frist one would not hold them. The carbons are blowing through them. When I jumped on the ban wagon and I started blowing through every thing to game, targets and to concret blocks. I have a friend who shoots with his teeth and can only get about 26 inch draw with his 80 lb bow and has not ever shot through any thing in his life. I talk him into get some carbons back in the 80's he was saying the same things you are and his frist kill was a bull Elk and he blowed through it and now he is blowing through elk and deer almost all of the time and how wouldn't give them up for any thing. I can tell a ton of stories like this. I have bow hunted for over 40 years have used different things some were good and some were not. when good things happen and when I make cleaner kills I stand by them. there are a tons of studies out there and ever one is a little different. I go by what I know as a fact for me by what I seen not what I hear or read and yes even what Arthur P is saying. I know for a fact when I started using the carbon arrows good things started to happen and shooting on different arrows and bows shooting staffs know way. I was getting better penetration on game than when I ever done using aluminums and I have taken hunderds of deer over the years taken elk and bear and now i'm not getting new arrows every 2 are 3 months that I had to do with aluminum arrows because, I shot 50 to 100 time a day every day at one time and alminums where always bent, soft or broken. If they ever come out with somthing better for penetration, last longer and shoot better. I will use it to hunt with I owe it to the game I hunt to use the best thing I know of to help me make cleaner kills.

Use what you want. I will use what works best for me. I think if I told Arthur Py my ice cream was cold he would say it wasn't because of something he has read.

Arthur P

Bowdoc, you've proven yourself to be complete waste of time and effort so I'm not going to get into this with you. All I'm doing is passing along what Ashby has published in his reports. If you don't like it, go argue with him.

MeanV2

Most of the time KE is not a problem with bows today. I'll take a little more speed shooting a lighter arrow, spined correctly, with ample FOC, and my KE will be good to go

Dan

bowdoc1

Thats right MeanV2 and I bet your blowing through things too get the exit hole we need for a good blood trial and a quick kills, so I don't know whats Arthur P point. My bow puts out 69 lbs of KE with the lighter carbon arrow. I'm shooting it with pass through on deer, elk or a car door. Like a bowhunter said to me once he was shooting 2219 for KE and when he shot the lighter carbon arrow he was getting almost the same KE as the 2219, because it was a lot faster, so way shoot a arrow that drops a foot at 20 yards and don't last as long as a lighter carbon arrow for hunting

put them down

Arthur P

The POINT is, bowdoc, that not everybody is shooting high poundage, high performance bows. You seem to expect everyone to be using the same stuff you shoot, and it just is not that way. Believe it or not, some people are shooting bows down in the 45-50 pound range! And some people are still using old fashioned recurves and longbows instead of compounds!?! GASP!

The less power your bow produces, the less you can afford the luxury of being hard headed and ignorant about information pertaining to arrow shaft and broadhead selection, even when that information does not agree with your time worn prejudices. That is especially when that information is as well researched and documented as the work Ashby has done.

I learned about the improved penetration with smaller diameter arrows. Since aluminums are getting hard to find locally anyway, I made a change. Now, one of my favorite arrows is a carbon/glass composite weighing 565 grains. Shoots like a dream out of my 50 pound recurve. Complete passthroughs on deer and wild pigs at a whopping 43 ft lbs. Put that same arrow on my ProTec at 60 pounds and I'm good for anything on this continent.

MeanV2

I'm only shooting 60# and my draw length is only 28" still my setup is producing over 68# of KE with a 340 grain CX Maxima. Yes I blow through everything I've shot with that setup including a 450# Black Bear and a 4X4 Mule Deer at 51 yards. If I shot a recurve I might shoot logs, but there is no need to out of modern day compounds

Dan

Arthur P

There's no need to shoot knitting needles either.

MeanV2

That's your opinion, the animals I've shot thought they were deadly arrows. O they were!! My point is shooting heavy arrows for pass through penetration on North American game is not necessary with modern compounds. Shooting a stick bow is a different ball game. Even though I use a rangefinder I prefer a lighter, flatter shooting setup to having a couple #'s of KE that I don't need. I shot completely through a 6X6 Bull Elk that was estimated at 900-1000# and was aged at 10.5 years old with a 390 grain arrow so he wasn't a babyand that was at 84 yards. I let the experiences I've gained in 40 years of Bowhunting tell me something, and one thing it has told me is that heavy arrows are not necessary in modern compound bows to hunt with. My 60# Allegiance is producing over 68#'s of KE shooting an arrow lighter than 350 grains. If you wanna shoot heavy arrows that's your choice. Thebeautiful thing about Archery and Bowhunting is you canselect your own gear. I just prefer a fast, flat shooting setup most of the time.

Dan

Arthur P

And all the animals I've killed with my 'logs' knew they were deadly arrows too. Just making the point that disparaging remarks can work both ways.

I'm so proud that your 60# bow is putting out 68# of KE and with arrows lighter than 350 grains. I'm almost impressed. [8D] What you and certain others don't seem to get through your skulls is that not everybody is shooting your bow or standing in your boots when they go hunting. Me, me, me, I, I, I.... It works for ME. I do it this way... So what?

You hunt with arrows so light that it make mes cringe to think of it. I'm sure my arrows are so heavy you wonder how they don't fall to the ground as soon as they leave my bow. Believe me, I keep score when shooting 3D just so I don't have to pull my arrows out of those targets. A 565 grain arrow out a 60 lb bow, driven by a 26" power stroke buries an arrow up pretty good. Not many of us have 33.5" draw lengths though, now do we?

See? I am smart enough to know that I am different than everybody else. Just like you are different from everybody else. Just like bowdoc is different from everybody else. We all have different draw lengths, different bows and, even more importantly, different values.

You've got your way of doing things and, as risky as I think your arrow weights are, more power to ya. I've got my way of doing things. I'm not saying everyone should do it my way, because not everyone is ME. There's a whole lot of room left in the middle between us.

All I'm trying to get people to do is to get educated so they can make smart decisions on arrow setup. And I do want to see them educated with something a little more substantial than 'hunting stories' dealing with one-time incidents. Something like authentic in-depth research.

MeanV2

Arthur P you seem to like to argue or maybe you just keep your feelings on your ElbowsI used to hunt with a 45# recurve shooting way Heavy arrows. I am sure I could throw something almost the speed of my arrows. It killed Deer fine. Care to venture a guess what my KE was?? All I am saying is that I would rather have more fps with a flatter shooting rig than a few more #'s KE. I am talking about the modern COMPOUND BOW here, not a stick bow. If ANYONE shoots a stick bow then they probably can use the heavier arrow. I doubt the percentage of traditional archers is very big in this day and time.

40 years of Bowhunting counts for more than a story about a one time incident.