link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Here ya go boys...If this guy is accurate then I have to ask...Have you ever seen a company with the gear shifter in reverse and their foot flat on the floor? In other words, going backwards in a hurry. Take a look.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showth...&threadid=6718

Edited by - Toby from MO on 01/17/2003 12:39:22

Edited by - Toby from MO on 01/17/2003 13:28:47

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Just to make it easier....

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The came out with a new cam design(still single cam) and 3 new bows The LX looks like the Legacy but has the new cam and is 35 ATA, BlackMax 3 (the new fastest bow on the planet) and a Conguest 3 thats it for now <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Drooling? I don't think so, same old bows with a little tweaking, nothing that makes me want to run out and buy a new one. I'll shoot them and see if they are worth the hefty price tag.

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Seems the new fastest bow on the planet, Mathews Black Max 3, only falls about 20 fps short of being accurate statement. As far as being the fastest solocam on the planet, I guess it will equally share that with the VFT. To boot, I'll bet the VFT's dimensional specs are still far more forgiving.

Edited by - Toby from MO on 01/17/2003 13:30:03

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Yeah that &quot;GUY&quot; is accurate.The new LX is going be the sweetest thing yet.BTW Toby Mathews has a chrony at the booth and invited Hoyt AndB/T with whatever bow they wanted to bring to shoot against the new BlackMax3 they declined.What BowTech backed down.Now thats going backwards fast IMO .Looks like they would have jumped on that 1.BTW its over 330 and not even a dually or cam .5 WOW So to answer Toby YES I have seen a company going backwards faster seen it to today B/T crawdaddying back to the booth

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I find it very hard to believe that Kevin from BT would back away from a speed challange.


Aussie by birth Texan by choice

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Believe it brother believe it.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I don't think it is a situation of Kevin Strother backing down. I think it is more of why waste his time when they have had a bow 20+ fps faster for over 3 years now.

&gt;&gt;&gt;-----SPEED KILLS----&gt;

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I'll tell ya why.Mathews had a machine that measured draw lenght, draw weight and left off. So you know they could compare apples to apples and they wouldnt because they couldnt.Thats why.

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

whats the brace height on the new black max.

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Same as the old, 5 1/2

SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

maybe if mathews got there brace height down to 3 1/2 inches they could compete with a blacknight.hehehe

you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine

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Here is an update from someone that was at the show.
Taken from archerytalk. posted there by Blazen
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> THUNDERSTRUCK

Having spent the entire show a few booths down from Mathews , I can tell you first hand , your informer is full of bullsh**! There was never a speed challenge issued to Bowtech , Hoyt or any other mfg from Mathews.

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>





Aussie by birth Texan by choice

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None of this proves anything. Mathews could have issued the &quot;challenge&quot; by cell phone, or in the cafeteria, who knows.

Whatever the case, why would bowtech pick it up? Mathews would be stupid to issue this challenge without first having proved they could &quot;win&quot; it. So lets say they have a hyper tunned BM, custom tillered limbs, and that bow is faster than a stock BT, when compared to stored energy. The show headline would be &quot;mathews faster&quot;. BT seems to generally be perceived as having the faster line of bows, so what is in it for them? Even if BT bows are faster than Mathews, BT should only agree to independant testing.

Bottom line is that the Black Max was the worst bow they ever made, bringing it back is a step in the wrong direction.

The new legacy might be a good hunting bow. Sounds like it is designed to be a little faster. Don't think I have ever owned a sub 7&quot; bow, but as long as it wouldn't catch on my winter clothes, I'm not scared about it.

Overall not a stunning acheivement. Mathews days as the industry technology leader, which is what made their name, are officialy over, including the grace period. I don't think they have added anything to the art since they introduced perimeter weighting (or parallel limb, if that came later) and that was pretty minor. They are still the best bow for me, but I wish they would do somthing a little more interesting. In hunting, I don't think they have done anything significant since the Ultralight. It is one thing to make a bow that shoots nicer, entirely different to make a bow that hits better.

This whole thing about the limb packets is a joke. If you had that problem, all you needed to do was epoxy bed them.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

By the way. The most obvious thing that Mathews could have done this year was to make their limbs more parallel. They have been moving in that direction over the years. Since the Patriot limb angle was a mathews copy, they could have returned the favour. Any changes in the limb angle? Particularly on the C3?

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Any tweaks to the Icon? OK pockets, but other than that, brace height, limb angle, cam, ATA?

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

IF this is true the Black Max is the new Fastest bow in the world, it proves a point I made in another post and that point is Bowtech has arrived as a major player in the archery industry. Mathews and problaly alot of other companies when Bowtech first came problaly thought that they wouldn't as big of a player as they are now and that is why it took three years for them to make a move in the speed direction and by doing so they are trying to take some of the stem out of Bowtech growth and I think it is a good thing and keeps everyone on there toes. Do you really think that Bowtech laid all there cards on the table with the Black Knight or Extreme Solo or as it is known now the Extreme VFT? I think not. Are buddy BTS has already hinted of a SOLO cam bow that shoos 400fps and let see if you add 20+fps for a dual cam model you get 420fps but will it be shootable with present tech it is doubtful.
As far as the challenge if it was ever really offered I wouldn't take it either. They may very well be faster but how did Bowtech know if they were honest with there offer and didn't put some who do on the bow and gin it up a bit from production specs and I don't think Mathews even made the offer because of the same reason. Yea you could check Brace, bow length, draw length and weight but what about the actual blue print specs on cam, riser, limb, and deflection angles that are used when building the bows on the production line.
I remember when Bowtech first came out the did the samething by making a challenge to Mathews at the amo show and they declined, Bowtech asked the amo officals there first year thier if they could bring a chrono a long and they said sure but no one had ever done that before. I read that in a mag article so that it for what it is worth.
I also remeber a post here I think it was by someone at Mathews or close to Mathews that stated Bowtech is not hurting are bisuness they are only taking market share for our competitors. It doesn't sound like the case anymore with claiming to have the speed title so slow bowtech down a bit.
As far as Mathews being inovator I don't that so they took old designs from many years ago and made IMPROVEMENTS not think the whole think up. All companies do this because there just isn't much out there in the archery industry that hasn't been done before. Heck we are still shooting bows with 20+ year old techknowlege just tweeked a bit and better looks because of better machining. Something to think about huh??
Don't get me wrong speed is good and that is what made me look at Bowtech but it wasn't the Black Knight is was the Mighty MIte I didn't even know about the Black Knight untill I went to there web page and thought that is damn fast but not for me to short of a brace but now I would buy a Black knight and not look back with the 6.75&quot; brace and 350fps. 6.5&quot; on the brace heigth is my limit.
Thanks to Matt\pa's report on the Pro38 dual cam I found out how much better I like a dual cam, I had never owned one and was brain washed by Mathews multi million dollar ad campain that said in so many words twin cams require to much mantaince and solo don't. Well I shot my first Pro38 daully for 4 months and had it timed once when I got it.
On a side note Matt if you read this I havn't forgot.

Edited by - bigcountry25 on 01/18/2003 03:02:23

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Hi,

Ya right,Mathews didn't invent anything new!

The cave man also invented the wheel by the way.
Let's see perimeter weighted single cams,parallel limbs,etc.

What's funny, is at my archery league night three fourths of the bows people are shooting are single cams,and many are look alike Mathews.

Since where I shoot is not considered Mathews country this is what I seen,Bow tech,PSE,Champions,Forge,Parker and Jenning.Their were a couple Mathews bows present and a few people didn't even know about them,that's the ignorance of some of the public.

The stories of bow problems I heard from many of the shooters were endless,I won't name the worst ones, but it wasn't Mathews.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Tree Hugger.

Please list what Mathews has invented


Aussie by birth Texan by choice

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Aussi I think about their leadership. Yuo could argue the single cam is just a clever rstatement of the alen patent, or the Dynabow (oh right ;0)). But i woukld include the outright new, and the first to do something on any scale, and that would include wood grips, aluminum machined riser, the whole package that is widely copied today could not be had by any other bow at the time. I would have snapped one up without the single cam, which at the time I had no reason to believe would be any more accepted that the Delta V. But they aren't even pushing forward the commercialization any more.

Big25. I sorta agree with you, but since the Black Max has been around since before BT (?), I am not convinced that they are getting witht he program. They should have ripped off the patriot, since it was basicaly ripped off them.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

The Patriot was relesed months before the Legacy. Who ripped of whom?

&gt;&gt;&gt;-----SPEED KILLS----&gt;

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Mathews released their parallel limb tech, short limb, long riser bows, what BT calls VLT several years before BT, It has nothing to do with the legacy. They explicitly stated the purpose of the system as being recoil elimination, force cancelation. Their mistake was not to push the system to it's maximum geometric posibility, allowing the Patriot to jump in there with a far more radical looking bow.

Beyond that, Bowtech is modeled on Mathews in looks, and features, and it isn't Mathews that uses the Bowtech cams. Bowtech for all their many features, don't look like hoyts, or High Country. They are an obvious rip-off of Mathews. It is also arguable that they are better bows, they are certainly better in certain areas, like speed.

I would never buy a Black Max. Some of the fast BTs have very shootable specs. There is no comparison.

Also on features like adjustibility, or the ability to get the bow you want with the cam you want, Mathews still isn't serving the public. I'm weird, I'd like a C2/3 with an Icon style cam, maybe someone would like to see them with dual cams, even if they are &quot;worse&quot; for certain things, why isn't the customer's preference served?

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Let me first Mathews are good bows but all I was tring to say is they didn't invent a single thing all they done was improve on all design as does every company now a days, like I said before we all all shooting 20 year old tech.

One thing I ain't for sure on is the perimeter weighted single cams but I did here Mathews has been or is being sued over that issue, by someone that is talked about alot on this board for not paying royalties for the use of that design. Has anyone heard anything about this or is it just bull. This was not heard on the internet but from a trusted shop owner that doesn't carry either line of bows.

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&quot;maybe someone would like to see them with dual cams, even if they are &quot;worse&quot; for certain things&quot;

&quot;Insert Mathews ad here&quot;
Dual Cams are history!
&quot;End ad&quot;

Dual cams are most certainly making a comeback. But if Mathews offered one, that would go against the advertising blitzkreig that we've seen the last 5 years.



Edited by - HotLZ on 01/18/2003 18:38:04

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I shot a ton of bows at the ATA show and the 4 bows that shined are the Mathews LX, Bowtech XVFT, Bowtech Wheely, and the dual cam PSE Nitro.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

oh yea I also never once heard any bow company put the other companies there down. I also never heard anyone try to say they had the fastest or best bow in the world. It was basically &quot;this is whats new, we think you will like it and now come check it out&quot;.

After my experience I don't see Bowtech or Mathews challenging anyone to a speed contest, They don't have time at these shows and honestly they could all care less.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Hawgz, I shot both the LX, BlackMax (neither through a chrono) and today I was shooting the bowtech extreame vft and I did shoot it through a chrono. 70lbs, 350 grain arrow, 30 inch draw 335 fps. Ask Bow_Tech shooter, I saw him several times at the show. The blackmax was also spitting them out fast, no idea on what it would come in under if shot through a chronograph.

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500 fps, I just saw your post - the MQ1 came before either <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

The conquest which had a steeper limb angle than the MQ1 came out the year before in 97. They claim the thing goes back to the Signature in 96. Personaly when I saw that I thought great, an elegant looking, and forgiving Ultralight. I don't think they pushed it as parallel limb, though it would have had that sort of effect, and they may have been softening up the market, since the first step was getting people to go for allt hat riser. Next year they came out with the ugly looking Conquest, but it was obvious what they were up to, and the bow shot great. I didn't know what they where doing with the Paralimb design when they came out with the MQ1, and the limbs where less parallel.

They saw back and forth. The legacy was Paralimb more than the Icon. Why?

Actualy, though I don't remember people saying it, their earlier ugly Z bows had pretty parallel limbs, but the argument then seemed to be that they needed the angle to deal with how short they were, not recoil. Then if you jump back to Browning bows of the 80s, they had a more parallel limb than most, being like the Zs in shape, and so forth.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Orion,

What was you overall impression on the VFT? I saw the speeds you were getting but what about recoil and noise? Was it harsh drawing it? What about the valley?

Spec for spec the VFT looks to be the best new hunting bow available this year. After comparing it spec to spec with the new Mathews LX, well, it doesn't even compare. Not to mention the 317 IBO from Mathews is with their new cam set at 65%, not 80% like the VFT specs. The VFT speeds seems to rival the speed of the Black Max yet it has the dimensions of the LX. Not bad in my book.

I have been a faithful Mathews shooter for five years now and the only problem is that I am still shooting that 5 year old Ultra Max. I originally bought that bow for the speed. Not to shoot 320+ but to shoot one sight pin and 425 - 475gr arrow at 270 - 280fps. I shoot this bow extremely well and have found no desire to purchase any of the &quot;smoother&quot; crap that Mathews has dished out the past 5 years. I have waited patiently for Mathews to answer the customers call and I am about ready to jump ship.

Toby

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I also shot the VFT and it is a sweet shooting bow also, No vibration or shock. It is a sweet bow. But i disagree about being the best hunting bow spec wise. Its brace is a bit low at just above 6.5 brace, thats why the dually IMO is a much better hunting choice IF you can deal with the 65% letoff and harsh draw.

But, if you hunt in warm conditions, and your form is under check the VFT would make one heckofa, hunting bow.

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Rack-Attack,

Your right, I agree. But for me, my Ultra Max has a 6 1/8&quot; brace so anything bigger than that is a step in the right direction. Plus the VFT has the speed at 80% and is a solocam like my Ultra Max. It looked dimesionally similar to my Mathews but minus the recoil and the addition of the extra speed is great.

I do need to get out and get my hands on the DC. I have read all the talk about the harsh draw and 65%, don't know if I would want that in the cold weather.

Thanks,

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Aussi I think about their leadership. Yuo could argue the single cam is just a clever rstatement of the alen patent, or the Dynabow (oh right ;0)). But i woukld include the outright new, and the first to do something on any scale, and that would include wood grips...


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Martin Archery might have something to say about that!


>>>---Doug--->

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Orion,

I thought you were talking about the parallel limbs, but if you were talking about riser geometry, I might have to give you that one.

But when you take a similar riser an use such a SUPERIOR cam and get so much more performance don't you really make it your own then? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

(all in fun)

&gt;&gt;&gt;-----SPEED KILLS----&gt;

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Did Martin have wooden grips, milled risers, and synthetic harnesses back when the first solocams came out?

Well you got a point 500.

Now if they can just keep the wheels on the DCs.

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The arguement about who had the first parallel limb design is lost to me. XI archery had the frist parallel limb designed bow before Mathews or Bowtech were even in exsistence. So please stop all this bickering about who did what first. Shoot the bow that fits you the best and let others shoot the bow that fits them the best. If you don't what someone pissing in your cheerios then don't pee in theirs.

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I don't see it as an argument, just a few friendly barbs.

Hence the &quot;all in fun&quot;, and big smile.

By the way Xi wasn't the first with pralles limbs, Rigid Archery was.
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> ......couldn't resist.

&gt;&gt;&gt;-----SPEED KILLS----&gt;

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

I just got back from the show, and here's what I saw--

A Bowtech Black Knight Dually at 6.75&quot; brace height and 36&quot;ATA with 65% letoff and 29&quot; drawlength at 70lbs shoot a 350g arrow at a flat 330fps.

A Mathews Black Max at 5.5&quot; brace height and 35&quot; ATA and 60% letoff and 30&quot; drawlength and 70lbs shoot a 350g arrow at a flat 330fps.

Which would you rather own? Which would be more forgiving? No brainer here.....

Most dealers were grumbling about Mathews' lack of new design or upgrades, basically the same old thing yet again, most I spoke to felt they really shot themselves in the foot this year. Both the Bowtech and Hoyt booths were buzzing all weekend, more people were shooting the Bowtechs than any other bow. Hoyt got the &quot;best of show award&quot; for their cam and a half.

The Merlins will also prove to be great this year, they introduced their version of the CPS/cam and a half and altho still in prototype form, once done (about a month or so) will prove to be a winner IMHO. Silky smooth draw with rock solid wall, level nock travel. The Max 3000 is going to be an excellent bow, it will be tough to give up my Max 2000 that I've grown so accustomed to, but evolution continues!

Merlin also released a new twin cam that is faster than the rapid cam yet much smoother. New parallel limb design bow to follow shortly also. (Sweet!!) New releases, along with their great Tri-Axis sights will gain their share of the market in 2003, all of these products are exquisitely built, the quality and finish is astounding on all of Merlins' products, as per usual. Can't wait to see the finished bows and shoot them. Chris has Ben working overtime to get everything done and ready for sale. I think it will be worth the extra waiting time, remember when the Supernova was released?

Best &quot;new&quot; bow line IMHO was the Kodiak Outdoors bows. These are high-quality bows designed for hunting, very quiet, smooth, excellent factory personnel. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: link to another board...you can commense drooling!
 

Toby from MO

The Extreme VFT was very nice to shoot & the speed was awsome. I did feel some hand shock when shooting the ultra light arrow. It wasn't too bad but it was there. I am sure by the time you add a stabilizer, quiver, sights, rest, etc. a lot of it will be gone. If you went with a good mid weight arrow out of this bow I don't think shock would be any kind of problem. Like I said it was a very impressive bow and I have one on the way. Can't wait to take it porker hunting here soon! As far as drawing it felt like a typical single cam speed bow. Those spects of the draw don't bother me so I didn't mind.

I will say this in defense of the LX, it has less hand shock of any bow I have shot. It was just dead in the hand with nothing on it. Speed wise it isn't close to the VFT but honestly it was not designed to be that fast. I have said it before this is more of a refined mathews bow, the brace height may be a little lower but you couldn't tell. It felt like a legacy with a smoother draw & less hand shock. The new cam is a winner in my book.

Really I don't care which bow booth you where at, nothing is revolutionary this year.....nothing. everything is more or less modificatiosn to improve most designs.