Kanga

Not really there is a lot more to form than just grabbing any bow and shooting.

If you could only see some of my students before they got any coaching from me and what they are like now and yes I bring all aspects into it from forgiving bows to arrows. It is a lot easier to learn proper form with a forgiving bow, arrow combination

MDBUCKHUNTER

Boy oh boy that was a lot of reading....

Here is my 2 cents.

1. Indians were putting rocks on the end of their arrows long before Ashbey came out with those reports. I have even seen old cedar arrowsthat date back as early as the 1940's and 1950'sthat had brass/lead inserts in the front. (Washington DC Museum Special Exhibit on Native American Weapons) Ashbey's information is nothing new.

2. I strive for speed to be accurate in guessing yardage. A faster bow = less pins = less guessing of the yardage. No, I am not lazy. I do shoot in plenty of 3D shoots and am quite good atknowing yardage. I feel like I owe it to the deer tohunt as ethical as possible. Shooting a big, slow arrow IMO only defeats this purpose.

3. Davepjr is not hijacking your thread. You guys preach about proper form, etc and when somebody asks you a question/challenges a belief you have, you guys freak out! What's up with that?

davepjr71

Your sentence doesn't make sense?Form and equipment are two separate things. Maybe you meant there is a lot more to shooting than just form?

Of course there is more to it.However, having a repeatable good form makes you more accurate.
Having a 30% FOC arrow over a 10% may not. Having a slower bow over a faster bow may not. Let's talk about brace height and bowATA while we are at it.

I'm not disagreeing that the slower bow is more forgiving.And for a beginner will build confidence faster while you learn to shoot properly.

My point is, how am I hijacking the thread by stating my opinions on what someone else has said? Yes, it's perfectly fine for one of the "long-term" guys todisagree and not be hijacking.

Furthermore, to keep stating that you can only beaccurate with slow bows and above 30% FOC arrows is simply not true.

BobCo19-65

Deep breaths, deep breaths.....

Arthur P

Not only that, but the bow must be properly fitted to the shooter. Leaning backwards trying to reach an anchor point, sometimes even behind the ear, with a draw length that is far too long is a major and very common cause of poor shooting form. Not only does it screw up form from the get to, draw length that is too long keeps a shooter from properly using back tension.

Draw length too short isn't nearly as bad, but it does keep the shooter from properly aligning his shoulders with the target and forces an unnatural bend in the bow arm elbow. It's a rare shooter who can keep more than a reasonable amount of bend in that elbow and still shoot consistently. (I have seen people who have both, an unnatural 'L' bend in the elbow AND are anchoring on the back of their neck. Unbelievable as it may seem.[:-])

A grip that doesn't fit the hand comfortably or causes the wrist to flex unnaturally is also bad news for form. Also, being overbowed is a very common cause of form flaws.

What about clickers? Their purpose is to guarantee the shot is taken from a specific draw length and, when properly set up, will only go off when back tension pulls through the anchor. Consistent draw length and back tension are critical aspects of form. The clicker is a piece of equipment specifically made to teach good form.

I can't fathom why some people refuse to understand that equipment and form are wound up together so tightly that it's impossible to speak of one without the other. To a knowledgeable shooter, the interrelation is blatantly obvious.

davepjr71

You obviously need the correct draw length. Even someone as unknowledgable as myself knows that. [8D]

Someone with good form, or a repeatable form,and knowledge of how to adjust your shooting style based on the rig can overcome small DL issues and be pretty accurate.

bowdoc1

Deep breath and let haft of it out, hold. aim. conecrate on the spot and stay with the shot till it hits. Longer bows and higher brace height make more forgiving bows. Arrows don't have much to do with forgiving bows. grouping better, flying better, penetration yes if it make you more foegiving it because the spined right and realy grouping good. Adding wieght to the point isn't going to do that. I have seen archers shoot 300 with 60 Xs before with a arrow kick off to the right, because big round arrows "line cuters" with heavy points so thay can hafway shoot them, but they didn't stick in the target deeper in fact didn't stick in the targets every good at all, slowing down there bows and a arrow that hit strieght on is going to out penetrate the arrow that hits side ways, a smaller around arrow is going to penetrate better than a big round arrow too. but they will hits the same spot every time. Maybe I'm wrong to some, but I think that the archers from has some thing to do with that not the arrow.
We have fast bow with high brace hights, but most are shorter. Thats way I say but a level on your bow to keep you from making a shot with your bow in a cant making you shoot lift are right are you can get a real flyer. In a tree stand it can be bad deal and takes only a haft a bubble to make you miss are make a bad hit. Speed is great for hunting Less guessing of the yardage and with the carbon arrow smaller around, stiffer, less bending when it coming out of the bow and when it hits penetration is alsome and mdbuckhunter is on the mark when he said feel like I owe it to the deer tohunt as ethical as possible. Shooting a big, slow arrow IMO only defeats this purpose.

TFOX

High foc does make a more forgiving arrow PERIOD,I don't think it is new because I new that without ever reading a study,I have done my own LIMITED test.An arrows weightdefinately plays a role in forgiveness.Speed magnifies flaws.Even light arrows without speed magnify flaws,I found that out while trying to shoot fat shafts for 3-d.

I am not a heavy arrow pusher though,but they have their advantages.



Arthur brings up a great point that goes back to the ORIGINAL intent of this thread,shoulder alignment and proper elbow alignment.I have a great deal of trouble with this because the way my body is shaped.I stated earlierin this thread that my shoulders come around at angles and getting my elbow straight back is next to impossible.(when I try it,extreme tension occurs in my shoulder,not good)Therefore,my draw length being set correctly is CRUCIAL and going short just will not work that well for me.

Straightarrow

Yes, but was it an extreme FOC? If so, what was it? Also, where's the published material that teaches others why it was done and what advantages it has? I'm not talking about high FOC. I'm referring to Extreme FOC. I have a stack of archery books and bowhunting magazines that would reach to my ceiling and then some. No where in any of them can I find information on Extreme FOCs. In fact I don't think I've ever seen another article recommending shooting over 18% FOC. Most common recommendations are from 14-16% for the maximum. Ashby's data represents FOCs up to 30%.

I would really like it if anyone can reference any published material on extreme FOC of 20% and above. How about single edge broadhead penetration. I've never seen anything on this before Ashby and I've read tons of bowhunting material. Any other studies on the strength of wood arrows vs carbon and aluminum? How about the lack of correlation between KE and penetration on live animals? I've never seen a study like that before. If this isn't new information, where has it been published before?

I can't remember the last time I guessed on yardage when shooting an animal. My range finder works quite well and my preparation at my stands gives me exact yardage - I owe myself that much when putting all the time I do into hunting, plus I think it's somewhat unethical to shoot when you don't know the yardage (unless you know it's close enough that it doesn't matter). I know that when an animal gets within my effective range, and it offers a shot opportunity, my big slow arrows are going to hit the mark and kill it very quickly. Form breaks won't affect my shots nearly as much. Doesn't sound very unethical to me.

The only people I see freaking out, are the ones who feel challenged by the fact that their fast, unforgiving setups, are being questioned. I'm here challenging those who state that Ashby's studies or something similar have been done before, to reference it. I'm questioning the notion that speed is an advantage or that fast bows designs or light and fast arrows are easy to shoot with the form flaws that occur for most while hunting. How is speed an advantage for a prepared person who knows the yardage? If the person is unprepared on something that simple and easy to do, they are probably unprepared for a lot of other things and would be far better served by the forgiving setup that is much easier to shoot with poor form, wind, twigs, odd angles and all the other things that murphy offers while hunting. The number of casual bowhunters out there shooting fast bows and not recovering deer is way too large. The speed ain't helping very much.

davepjr71

Shoulder angle and elbow angle are important for sure. If my right shoulder is not in the correct spot it forces my right elbow up and out and I'm inconsistent. If I "lock" the shoulder into the right place everything comes together and I punch centers. i too have a problem with my right shoulder feeling tight and that's usually what causes me to push the elbow out. not good at all.

Indians didn't sit around thinking about the FOC of their arrows. Studies where not done because most people have the common sense to realize that they needed to use heavy tips back then to get penetration with their slow arrows. Once arrows got faster there was less need for heavy tips. Lot's of people experimented with very heavy tips way before Ashby did his report. you will not find the reports probably because they are never published or done before the INTERNET became so popular.